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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 21, 2015 8:29:52 GMT -5
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Post by thesanityassassin on Sept 21, 2015 11:56:23 GMT -5
Interesting read over, but still kinda frustrating that the best advice out there for Chaos players is "Take some broken-ish Forge World stuff in bulk".
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 21, 2015 12:00:09 GMT -5
to be fair, the bulk of the army is actually cult troops that they recommend The nurgle army looks particularly deadly. I know that's been a common complaint that only nurgle is good... but man that looks nasty - especially when you consider it's 1850! and the slaanesh version was pretty instrumental in a certain team's win this weekend  |
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Post by thesanityassassin on Sept 21, 2015 12:33:02 GMT -5
and the slaanesh version was pretty instrumental in a certain team's win this weekend I've been on the receiving end of those damn Blastmasters enough times to know how much they hurt in a very cover-dominated meta. "Oh, you want to jink? With stealth and shrouded? How cute..." |
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Post by voodoo on Sept 21, 2015 12:34:28 GMT -5
He’s got some interesting points for certain, but if he’s already looking at FW why didn’t he touch on Necrosius and his WAY better zombie hordes? I like Plague Marines but they suffer the same problem as all the cult troops; they have to sit in a rhino to get anywhere quickly and once you’ve peeled open the tin can they still get shot down like the really expensive marines they are. Yeah T5 will help reduce the number of incoming wounds, but not vs eldar, their troops still wound on 3’s.
There are still bright points in the CSM book, but without having IA:13 to lean on, the article would have been written a LOT differently. Mainly not at all. I’m interested to see where CSM are going to go when the new book drops; until then I’ll just curl up and keep hoping they don’t take away zombies…
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Post by thesanityassassin on Sept 21, 2015 12:42:20 GMT -5
It's hard to tell what they will or even CAN do with the base CSM book. Daemonkin feels like it kinda locked in some of the basic profiles and points costs for a while by just copy-pasting most of it from the main book with Mark of Khorne added in.
And as for ForgeWorld, IA:13 is just so good. While each of the lists in the article has a core of troops from the main codex, they all have between 600 and 1200+ points of IA:13 goodies as the primary killing power of the army. I mean, when my Word Bearers next feel brave enough to take to the field they're going to have likely 2 Hell Blades, some Rapiers and a Sicaran. Those units are great, and I can totally get why there's a push to take them. It's just a shame that the general "fix" for CSM has to come in resin from a completely separate book in a way that won't always make your opponent very happy (always folks that will get mad about Forge World stuff no matter what units you take).
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 21, 2015 13:04:13 GMT -5
to be fair though, S6 scatterbikes wound pretty much everybody on 3's... difference is the plagues get better saves than most And Daemonkin kind of shows it's not actually the units themselves that are the problem because a good daemonkin list (even using these old units) is far more potent than either csm OR khorne themed daemons can be. I still maintain there are many good things in base csm outside of IA 13/FW as well - Tommy ran base csm this weekend and it did quite well for him, as did Justin with the exception of the amazing sicaran - again all through the base book. Problem is there's quite a few duds when you compare to the loyalist book. I'd look at the units not included in daemonkin as the ones most likely for an update actually. IA 13 is very good though. In fact you might say some of those choices are pretty over the top (ie: rapiers!) so yeah why wouldn't you take them? ANY list can be made better with those choices of course! take that nurgle list and replace the Forge world drones/hulks with 2x3 oblits and another heldrake and you still have a very potent list, albeit pretty samey - and that's the big problem is that outside of forge world if you take the "good stuff" you're generally either playing only a few key units repeatedly or have to ally in daemons. |
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Post by voodoo on Sept 21, 2015 13:46:58 GMT -5
Agreed Shannon, it’s hard to make a diverse list when many of the units are really bad. Noise Marines are hands down the best cult troops in the base book. Ignore cover weapons in a marine body is just great, Nurgl has great staying power due to FNP but don’t get long range weapons and suffer from a lack of drop pod to get them to where they need to be to do some good damage.
And yeah, why would you ever not take a rapier? Honestly they’re so great; they’ll never not be in a list I make.
In the end I’m a bit on the fence like Matt, I’m not sure what GW can do to “fix” base CSM.
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Post by nsc on Sept 21, 2015 14:20:20 GMT -5
The best Daemonkin lists (arguably) aren't taking spikey marines, they take bikers, because of the formation and they explode into bloodthirsters
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 21, 2015 18:29:59 GMT -5
The best KDK lists believe it or not take possessed. five of them so they can run the slaughtercult basic CSM are one of the problematic units in the base book unfortunately. Ian had a dreadclaw on the table at the tourney this weekend... who says plague marines don't get drop pods (if someone could afford masses of the damn things that is ) |
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