Deathstars: Using and Beating them.

[thesanityassassin]

Well, the topic is pretty much covered in the title. What are people's thoughts of deathstar units? How does one make the best use of these mighty but concentrated units in order for them to be more than points denial? In turn, how does one best destroy such a unit in order to claim enough VP's to win BIG?

[Jack Shrapnel]

Well I have used deathstars from time to time (an ogrestar of ironguts and characters, a horde of grave guard with characters) but in general I really don't like playing them for a couple reasons, both tactical and from a "fun" point of view:

1 - They limit your threats. If I'm only facing one unit that I have to really worry about, well I can either completely ignore that unit, or focus several threats of my own against it. One unit can be blocked, misdirected, tar pitted, or whatever... trying to do that with three or more threats is MUCH harder. I try to use the principle that if you're running one threat, you might as well run several, or that one unit is going to be drawing alot of fire - or ignored and the rest of your army is being picked apart.

2- They reveal your hand. Much like in poker, you don't necessarily want your opponent (in a tournament at least) to have your game plan completely laid out in front of them. It's much harder to utilize tactics, especially misdirection with a deathstar.

3 - Less Fun factor. I'll use my own ogrestar (truly built on a dare just to see what this thing would look like!) as an example... it did very well in the tourney I brought it to... however it was really really boring tactically... run it at stuff and evaporate it. If the opponent could deal with it, I lose. If they couldn't, I win. Probably not very fun for those opposing it either. So it only comes out on request.... and actually it's a rather weak deathstar out of combat - once people figured out how to beat it, the win/loss ratio went down considerably!

4 - Point denial makes for less close games. There's nothing quite like the feeling "wow, that was close!". Really sucks when there's 1200 points or more of an opponent's army that you can't touch, and you will absolutely 100% lose if you can't deal with it.

5 - limits flexibility and movement. Ask those who run them, or those who dismantle them, a deathstar can't be everywhere. If you point it at the wrong unit, or don't just rush up the middle, what are the guarentees that it will be where it needs to be? And if the deathstar is not working at doing the killing, you often don't have enough tools to win. (especially once people figure out how to beat them - next I'll post with a couple ideas!)

[Jack Shrapnel]

So you're facing the dreaded ogrestar after Shannon promised he wouldn't bring it to another tournament? And he's cackling evily at the ruin it will bring you? Want to wipe that smile off his face? Here's how to do it:

1 - Templates. Warpfire throwers, stone throwers, doom divers, flame cannons, spells. Drop a big template or five on that deathstar and watch the models drop! This is even more effective if you have an option to delay or slow the unit so you can do it again next turn!

2 - Characteristic tests. Teclis and his buddies giving you fits? Toughness tests are a lovely way to remind them how pale and unhealthy they are... or a strength test even. Elves don't do pushups, punish them for it. This is generally accomplished through spells although warriors, demons and skaven have other fun and inventive ways to allow Nurgle / Nurglitch to help out. Ogres aren't exactly initiative stars. They test, they generally die.

3 - Don't fight fair! One on one sucks with a deathstar. Only works if you have a bigger deathstar, and then your opponent can just use all these tricks against you too! You don't want that! Instead multi-charge. It's rather easy to do once the support or flanking units are taken out. If you don't have the big templates or other tools to reach out and touch the deathstar from afar, you're probably stuck doing it in combat. Two flank charges are alot better than a flank and front (obviously). Usually deathstars run big fronts/rear and teany tiny flanks, taking advantage of supporting attacks, horde formation or other such nasty advantages of 8th. If you can neutralize attacks, that's a lot of wasted potential. No supporting attacks to the side or rear, and there's the bonus to CR too!

4 - Hey, look over there! Misdirection of the star is very important. If it goes where you want instead of the opponent, once again you waste the potential of this killing machine. Another facet of misdirection is lack of truly good targets. Your opponent is not going to want this deathstar not killing things and making back it's points. They're going to send it somewhere. If they have to choose between targets that aren't so obvious, you get the advantage if they choose wrongly.

5 - Ignore it. If you have the option of delaying the star with cheap units or redirectors this can work. Remember They have to align to you when they charge, and if they overrun they have to do it in a straight line - if they elect not to and just turn a different way, they've wasted alot of movement potential. (especially when that redirector is parked an inch away). Don't let the deathstar fight anything important. In the meantime you're taking out all the support units, and gaining your victory this way. Remember - there is no benefit in 8th in tabling your opponent (no more massacres). You don't have to beat that 1200 point unit... you just have to beat the 1200 points that are left... with 2200 of your army! (while 200 points nobly sacrifice themselves for the greater good)

[Jack Shrapnel]

Want to have the biggest baddest deathstar since the emperor? Well they aren't always just point and click... especially against a savvy opponent. But if you must, truly must do it... here's a couple of ways to do it better.

1 - Magic defense. The reason an ogrestar is survivable isn't the 5+ armor save. It's the fact that you can also put the runemaw and greatskull on the unit. If the opponents' mage is miscasting on double 1,2,3, AND 6 - suddenly it becomes less easy to successfully target it. Oh and if you do on a 2+ the nearby gnoblars get to take one for the team. You might not be as awesome cool and overpowered as an ogre, but if you have no ability to mitigate spells, you are in for a short career as a deathstar.

2 - Warmachine hunters. Tyrants don't hang with gorgers for their personal hygeine, it's for their ability to show up right behind a warmachine and chew it up. You need something to take out those warmachines - or at least tie them up. If the goblins are busy fighting some fast cav, they're not launching one of their suicidal friends into your star! The ironcurse icon, while only a 6+ ward, can definitely help for a measly few points.


3 - Be supportive. You MUST have something guarding your flanks. You have just dropped a thousand points into this unit, blindly marching it forward without any support is going to see it dead or tarpitted. cheap is better than scary, but if it can't be cheap than scary works too. 50 slaves with steadfast aren't going anywhere, and protect your seer/bell pretty reliably. If you are trying to flank phoenix guard, but have to fight swordsmasters to do so... equally difficult proposition.

4 - Detachments - they're not just for empire anymore! Along the lines of support, if you have a reasonably survivable unit of even 2 ranks near the star, you can use this to charge the unit trying to tarpit your prized unit. Suddenly along with the kills of the star, you're adding charge + flank + additional kills + rank denying! A slow deathstar is a dead deathstar (or at best useless). Any combat your in needs to be over quick - your turn needs to be moving towards your real target, not stuck fighting zombies.

5 - Target priority. More so than in a balanced list, you need to be pointing your star towards something worthwhile. You have to eliminate the threats to your uber-unit and make sure your deathstar is actually doing something worthwhile. Congrats, you just killed 2 units of skinks all game - while the rest of your army crumbled around you. Too bad you never got close to that Slaan! What makes this part difficult is the points you spent on the deathstar are points you don't have to take out the threats.

[redshirt2375]

To beat a Deathstar you need to find Luke and get him in an Xwing and make sure he uses the Force

Sorry couldn't resist

[thesanityassassin]

Wow! That's quite a comprehensive write up Shannon! Certainly gives me lots to think about! I'll add in some hard-earned and slightly less organized thoughts myself.

1st, help for Deathstar players:

1. Have a "secondary hammer". This is another threatening looking unit that can still put some hurt into an enemy force, and thus can deny MORE of the board to units trying to avoid your deathstar. I know personally that between my 1100 point Phoenix Guard unit, and my much cheaper 450 point Spear horde I can put a great deal of the board within the threat range of a big unit of elves. While the spear unit is both cheaper and squishier, situationally they can actually be killier than the phoenix guard, and with some magic support their damage output is actually much higher. More than a few mighty units, including some enemy deathstars have been lured into a fight with the spear unit buffed with Occam's Mindrazor, something which very very little in the game will survive.

2. What to do with the "rest"? Knowing that you will be bringing a deathstar, and that your opponent will likely be savvy enough to try some of Shannon's tricks towards neutralizing its ability to take over the game, you need to be able to use some of the "remaining" 1200 points of your army to inflict damage on the enemy. While a common tactic defending a deathstar can be to distract it, you can fairly effectively use the deathstar itself as a distraction. Place it somewhere menacing and advance in such a way as to draw a great deal of attention to your unit, either drawing the enemy towards your flanks or shooing them away. The more durable your 'star is the better for this, and I always favour deathstars that can soak a ton of damage rather than those who can only deal it. (Use Characters to kill for you!). While the enemy is forced to alter his positioning because of your big unit, your "minor" elements can sweep in and kill his. I often find that games in which a deathstar is involved come down to the performance of the other half of the deathstar player's army...it has to be active in killing the enemy. If it isn't you're likely to lose the game even if your 'star stays alive based on the loss of your support elements which the deathstar itself is unlikely to score enough points to make up. In all probability your deathstar will NOT kill its points back in a 6 turn game, but played right it doesn't have to. So long as you can reliably take out one major enemy block (preferably with attached character) with it, you should be able to, and plan on scoring the win with the rest of your force. Make sure you still have elements that can eliminate small enemy units quickly. 10 Archers seem like a pointless and tiny threat compared to the rest of my army, but that 100 point unit of fast cav they shoot down over a couple turns and the table quarter they control by staying in my deployment zone suddenly become a very big deal when adding up scores at the end.

3. Eye likely targets. In know this is repeating something that Shannon said, but redundancy is good redundancy is good. And I really feel this is the biggest key towards making such a unit work. In combination with the advice above, pick a target or two for your deathstar to crush, and focus in on that. Keep your mind open to targets of priority and be aware if your choice suddenly stops being viable, but ultimately the more focused you stay the better. And remember that the best choice isn't always the enemy's biggest unit where his mage and BSB are standing. The likelyhood of him letting you get to that unit with your 1200 point steamroller is very low. However if you can kill a couple of 200 point warrior units and knock out a warmachine on the way through you've done enough damage by far for your Deathstar to have likely won you the game assuming the rest of your army has performed half decently. Expecting your deathstar to kill its points cost back in a game is really unrealistic against most armies, and if you try you'll get in trouble. Have a plan and know where your VP's are coming from and you'll slay.

[thesanityassassin]

Now, some hits towards dealing with the accursed things, including things that have messed me up quite badly in the past. Shannon already made some of these comments, but I thought I would reiterate.

1. Mass damage spells/templates. Deathstars usually come in one size: Big. The more templates you drop on them the better. I've lost most of my 1200 point unit to a single Dwarf gyrocopter following me with it's steam gun over 3 turns. Anything that can do significant damage over a few turns without any fear of reprisal from the deathstar itself is a gift from the gods.

2. Don't "hit it with something to do a few casualties" in close combat. Whittle it down with shooting or magic, but if you're going to engage a deathstar in combat, either Tarpit and make 100% sure you will hold, or be sure you can smash it. I love nothing more than a chariot hitting my deathstar, killing 3 or 4 and then dieing, as it gives me the sudden opportunity to make a free reform and charge something very unexpected in my turn.

[stonecutter]

If shooting and magic can't do it for you and fate decrees the death-star must be engaged, the DS will almost invariably have to be ground down into nothing. The primary reason is that almost every deathstar is either unbreakable or stubborn. If your opponent has not made the unit stubborn (and for very few points, the crown of command will do this for any army), then your job is likely to be much easier. Here are the keys I have found effective when dealing with death-stars that I actually had a chance against in combat - i.e. fighting warshrine buffed, halberd armed chosen of khorne with T3, 5+ save infantry is not going to do anything for you but help you get your own models off the table ;D

1. make sure you have a counter to any supporting characters in the unit that could hurt your rank and file (i.e. your own choppy or very survivable hero).

2. charge the unit from a flank if possible, ideally two flanks, to limit the number of attacks back so you get at least one round of minimal wounds inflicted on your own unit(s). The death-star will do a combat reform after losing but with steadfast they will be able to face the flanking unit and bring their numbers to bear. With units on both flanks, at least one will have a rear.

3. Kill the BSB. Do not issue a challenge as it might allow your opponent to retire the BSB. Direct maximum attacks against the BSB so that the CR bonuses are lost and the re-roll for a failed break check are eliminated. If a single character is making the unit stubborn/unbreakable, kill that character before the BSB (if possible). A BSB is usually easier to kill since they have only a couple wounds, lower stats and fewer points for protection.

3. Use magic to buff your troops and hex the death-star. Changing the odds of the combat by +1 or -1 in your favour is far more important than doing a few wounds against some non-vital supporting enemy unit. Similarly, better to sacrifice one of your own supporting units during the magic phase than to allow the death-star to gain +4 toughness or your own troops to have their WS/T/S reduced by magic.

4. Use a thunder-stomping monster to quickly crush the foe. A big monster alongside a rank and file infantry unit will really help grind the death star down in short order. Even if the giant/steggie/gorgon gets killed, they will likely do enough wounds in a couple rounds of combat to pay for themselves.

That should about cover it. Good luck and if you can beat the death-star, you will have done everyone a favour ;D