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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 23, 2017 6:15:46 GMT -5
so they guy gets to the final table... with his Magnus/mortarian/renegade knight + changling batallion with brims and 7 plague drones
(don't these seem like fun lists to face? gotta love GT's)
....and missed tallied the points on the knight with double avengers by 15 points.
disqualified for having an illegal list. Opponent wins the whole thing without rolling a dice.
lesson - do your math.
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Post by raceygaming on Oct 23, 2017 8:05:20 GMT -5
You feel like some one in the 5 rounds before would have caught this....like any one playing chaos. Guess that's kinda a kick in the teeth, would have thought that you would just remove the illegal model from the list and go for it. Id assume he would lose being down 500-ish points.
On the flip side this really illustrates an issue that needs to be addressed in 8th ed. Armies are starting to look like Fantasy End times, 1-2 huge point sinks that kill everything, then a bunch of tar pitting chaff/ objective campers. Lets face it this meta DID NOT work out well for Warhammer Fantasy...
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Post by artonas on Oct 23, 2017 9:40:05 GMT -5
well thats one side of the meta. I went down to Quebec for Quebec city open and the top 5 armies were all chaos soups. They all had 100 brims with a bunch of caster such as malefic lords for smite spam and changling. So the only thing you are ever able to target are brims which you hit on -1 and they still have 4++. So if you get close to them they smite you down, be like 10+ smites. So 10d3 wounds killing whatever is close.
Big stuff isnt tough to take down if you can do mortal wounds.
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Post by voodoo on Oct 23, 2017 10:01:42 GMT -5
I thought Brims could only do a single D3 as they only cast on one die.
It also sounds like no one there brought the Brimstone spam kryptonite; Sisters of Silence. Provide a cumulative -1 to hit for each unit of them within X inches of the casting model. Brimstones now cast on a 7+ on 1D6, aka, impossible to cast. The Sisters sit up front of the army along with a Culexus or two and laugh while they provide a line of immunity to the rest of the army.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 23, 2017 10:18:01 GMT -5
it's the malefic lords... so utterly cheap for what they can do. Basically a supreme command with five of them is dirt cheap and gives you five full smites a turn. Plus can't target because they're characters. Pretty much any chaos list can spare 150 points to do that (at 30 points a pop they're stupid cheap). Throw them behind some poxwalkers or a crapton of brimstones and you're good. 18" of anything dies.
Because it's chaos soup, you can just bring guns to kill the T3 3+ save sisters incredibly easy. Culexus is completely countered by a heldrake with baleflamer (hi hitting on sixes, meet always hit!) who then charges and eats him easily. same with the sisters. or hell, anything else chaos has really.
thats why straight smite spam doesn't work. There's some easy counters. But if you only commmit 200 points to the tactic for some brims and the lords, you have a LOT of list to still do everything else (like kill the counter)
Chaos is straight up terrifying now when forge world comes into the mix... because forge world is just not balanced very well with some things - ESPECIALLY malefic lords which should be at LEAST double their cost for what they do (ie: herald cost from the base book because that's basically what you're getting is a smite on a T3 low wound character)
The reason AOS doesn't suffer from the same problems as 8th is because there is no character immunity. that's the only way that cheesy tactic works in 40k. If someone could just nuke the malefic lords across the board they can't do anything and are pointed accordingly (strong but not invincible)
look at it this way - would you pay 30 points for an artillery piece that has a 80% chance of hitting and once it does it does D3 mortal wounds - D6 16% of the time. Plus you can't target it??? counters death stars and any big thing at all. Only thing that doesn't care is nurgle or hordes (or nurgle hordes!)
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Post by question on Oct 23, 2017 11:26:40 GMT -5
Back to the original story. 15 points being missed is easy. Shouldn't happen, but it probably does more often than we realize. Several years ago we had played two rounds at a tournament when I was asked to review an Ork list as the only other known Orc player attending. The opponent had a "hmm" moment and approached the TO. I knew something was seriously wrong as soon as I saw the list. When I did the math that player was 30% over the point limit. (FYI,the Ork player was allowed to trim his list to the required limit under the supervision of the TO and myself and penalized a number of places in the standings. He was not disqualified.) It hadn't been caught because neither of his opponents knew enough about Orcs to be sure there was an issue. The player who spoke up just had a hunch.
If the guy at the GT didn't play another Chaos player familiar with his pieces, 15 points would be sooooo easy to miss. On an 1850 or 2K list that's less than 1% variance. In most games that won't make a significant difference, but at some (critical) moments it will. We largely rely on personal integrity here and that's fine by me as most math errors I've encountered have been honest ones (hurried, distracted, stupid (by the player's own admission), etc.). Some, like my Ork example, are not.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 23, 2017 11:56:03 GMT -5
Also keep in mind that those few extra points sometimes allow you to squeeze in something particularly brutal... in this case a second avenger cannon.
when you're using these big expensive models (AKA the new deathstars) in this case double primarchs... those few extra points allow you to bring something that otherwise wouldn't be possible.
it's easy as hell to miss though... but notice - hand typed list... no listbuilder program.
intentional... maybe... maybe not. But I agree with him being bounced for it. If it was a friendly, average list maybe not... but this is a fine tuned WAAC list from a "top player"... you telling me he can't do basic math or even have the time to double check it before the tourney...
...or you know... run it through battlescribe.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Oct 24, 2017 14:22:33 GMT -5
Malefic Lords are so so dirty. It's rough to *not* think about bringing 5 of them in any of my Chaos lists, but it just feels like such a "that guy" thing to do, so I'm leaving them out for now.
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Post by voodoo on Oct 24, 2017 14:26:29 GMT -5
They're the new Cyclopia Cabal.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 24, 2017 16:17:35 GMT -5
Malefic Lords are so so dirty. It's rough to *not* think about bringing 5 of them in any of my Chaos lists, but it just feels like such a "that guy" thing to do, so I'm leaving them out for now. To be absolutely clear...they're one of the reasons no forgeworld is in place for secret santa. If GW doesn't do anything about them at all, don't expect them to be permitted at club champs. we had a comp in place at the end of 7th. I have zero problem reigning in the stupidity for our local tournies. |
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Post by raceygaming on Oct 24, 2017 16:38:20 GMT -5
Fair enough, well I have given the Malefic Lords a look over and ya its on par with an Ork weird boy who is 67 pts so 30 is a steal, I think the bigger issue that I am seeing in the "chaos soup" or 3 LOW death star lists are these insanely cheap, insane survivable brim stone horrors.
If you compare them at 3 pts to a Grot
Grot : S2 T2, 6+ save , have 12" pistol S3
Brim : S2 T3?, 4++ save, can cast smite
That is a world of different, giving cheap access to command points and obsec units that are hard to shift while costing almost nothing. Also in 8th space filler/ bubble wrap is the new table control with the 9" bubble being the key, these guys are amazingly effect at give it to a list.
Maybe something a touch more reasonable would be
Pink: S3 T3 4++ ( 5++ with bonus +1)
Blue: S2 T1 5++ ( 6++ with bonus +1)
Brim: s1 T1 6++ ( 7++ with bonus +1)
It still lets you get those cheap CP, and fill the table nicely but at least they melt to a stiff breeze which is a nice change.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Oct 24, 2017 16:45:13 GMT -5
They're also base Ld7, so it's not like you kill a couple and they just pop, and on top of that you roll a 1 and a bunch fly back. It's just silly.
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Post by raceygaming on Oct 24, 2017 19:31:18 GMT -5
They're also base Ld7, so it's not like you kill a couple and they just pop, and on top of that you roll a 1 and a bunch fly back. It's just silly. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks they are a little on the OP side. I honestly don't think I have seen pink horrors in 8th which is really too bad. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 24, 2017 21:46:56 GMT -5
there's literally no reason to run pinks under the current rules. You run brims with a single blue. the blue does the casting so no one dies. casualties are taken on the brims.
as a primarily chaos daemons player I can't wait til the full codex to fix things....
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