Dark Reapers - Getting To The Root of the Issue

[Frosty the Pirate]

Dark Reapers - Getting To The Root of the Issue

DISCLAIMER: I am writing this article purely a an expression of one players opinion and viewpoint. I've played Eldar for nearly 14 years and own a substantial collection. I've owned and used Dark Reapers in nearly every edition of 40k even when they were not great for most of them. While I do agree that Reapers do need an adjustment, I'm writing this article because I believe the area of true problem is not with the basic Reaper themselves, but with how certain aspects of the unit's design can be abused.

Background:

I was reading around the interweb recently as I'm easing in to 8th edition after a bit of a hiatus from 40k. and came across this article:

www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/12/40k-meta-houston-we-have-a-dark-reaper-problem.html

What this article concludes is that the recent buffs to Dark Reapers amount to why they are being spammed. They move & shoot heavy weapons at 3+ and ignore the current meta of stacking negative to-hit modifiers. Breaking LOS is no help because the Tempest Launcher ignores LOS and rains down 2D6 shots anyways (through at lower range, strength and damage).

So why does everyone think Dark Reapers are "broken" and just digustingly better than every other similar unit?

Problem Misconception 1) They can move and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty

There are plenty of other units in the game that can move and shoot with similar weapons. Guard Tanks don't suffer accuracy penalties on their turret weapons for moving, Hellblasters have what argubly was a heavy weapon profile converted to rapid-fire & assault options to enable moving and shooting, Tyrannofexes can also move & shoot without penalty and even has access to support psychic powers that let them advance and shoot heavy. In fact every 8th ed codex released so far has an ability to take a heavy-support slot unit that has or can have the ability to move & shoot heavy weapons without penalty. This is something every codex has or is probably getting in 8th. This feature by itself is not the problem everyone makes it out to be. As the reamining 8th ed codexes appear, this will become normal.

Problem Misconception 2) They are really undercosted and need a big points hike

A unit of 5 Dark Reapers plus Exarch with Tempest Launcher (6 models as configured in the unit box) costs 167 points. A 5 man Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators costs 165. Russ Varients start at 168 with sponsons. Considering these things are all FAR more durable than Dark Reapers, I think the basic reaper cost is reasonable. It's possible GW will adjust reapers slightly upward, but the "huge points adjustment" that people think will happen isn't here. Adding a couple points per guy (I'd expect any points hike to be less than 5 points per model) isn't really going to reduce spam.

Problem Misconception 3) They ignore my negative hit modifiers

Reapers got this ability because their AP and cover ignoring abilities got nerfed/removed. All the way back to 3rd Edition, Dark Reapers had AP3, which in 8th ed terms is -4 AP. They also ignored cover/jink saves for a long time as well. These days they are just -2 AP, through with multi-damage as a signicant upgrade. Again, by itself this isn't game breaking. Lots of other units have multi-damage weapons with similar/better AP at a similar or slightly higher points cost. Reapers got these changes to give Eldar a tool to deal with Primaris Marine bodies, and they work fairly well against Bikers and many Monsters/Vehicles as well, but against single-wound bodies, they suffer from being ineffcient firepower and will struggle to chew through even a mid-size unit. Reapers might ignore negative hit modifiers, but they don't ignore cover bonuses anymore.


So what's really the problem?

Real Problem 1) "Cat Lady" Yvraine -> The staple kingpin in every "Reaper Spam" list, her Word of the Pheonix psychic power essentially reading as "Choose a unit to shoot with now, that unit can still shoot again normally in the shooting phase". With this power being WC6 to cast and her having a +1 to all psychic tests, it's going to go off very reliably, and she's going to choose that 10 man guided reaper squad to just mash any target to pieces and start the domino chain of soulbursting units around the board. I suspect in either the Ynarri codex or in the next Chapter Approved we'll see a BIG adjustment here. She is INSANELY good at her current ~130ish points cost, and I wouldn't doubt seeing an adjustment to her psychic powers as well.

Real Problem 2) Tempest Launcher -> A 5 point upgrade to go from 2 to 2D6 shots AND Ignore LOS? Sure you lose a point of strength and give up 12" of range. But that upgrade is so good it's worth taking a minimum sized squad just to get it! Most Reaper Spam lists do their real damage by spamming minimum sized squads and taking as many Tempest Launchers as they can get to blow enemy troops off of objectives. This upgrade either needs a points hike, or a nerf. I personally think changing it from 2D6 to 2D3 shots to reduce it's power level or bumping it up from 5 extra points to 15 or 20 extra points would be in order. As it stands today, this upgrade is basically an auto-take at this points value.

Real Problem 3) Squad Size -> Dark Reapers fluff-wise are suppose to operate in small groups. This would reduce the amount of force multipler recieved from psychic support. 10 Guided Reapers is just nasty, and there's nothing better to spend 2CP to shoot at newly arrived deepstrike unit than a 10 man reaper squad. If squad size was to be reworked to say be 3 to 6 members, it would greatly reduce the effects of the psychic support Dark Reapers recieve without having to change reaper's point costs or abilities. They would still be a great choice instead of the dust-collectors they were for most of the game editions, and the overly abusable large units would be gone.


So how do I deal with Dark Reapers until something changes?

Well, until the next chapter approved or a Ynarri codex arrives, things aren't going to change. Dark Reapers in a regular craftworld list are quite a good choice and many players will take them, The don't get especially broken until you take them in full-strength units (or take several MSU units with tempests) and get downright silly with the psychic support available in a Ynarri list. The best thing to do is point some long-range firepower with a couple points of AP on it at Reapers. T3 3+ W1 is not that tough, even with -1 or -2 to hit, Reapers die pretty easily even when well protected. If you have a chance to shoot them, you should probably take it. Snipers with a chance to deal Mortal Wounds, Heavy Bolters & Assault Cannons, and other similar weapons will easily put down a few reapers and take the sting out of the unit.

If you can't dedicate firepower to them, stand in cover! Reapers unlike previous editions only have -2 AP on all their weapon profiles. Standing in cover or granting yourself a cover bonus negates half of their AP bonus and basically turns them into 2 shot Heavy Bolters. Unless I'm just living under a rock, Heavy Bolters really don't scare too many folks these days unless you've got a ton of them.


In conclusion, I think the calls that Dark Reapers are "going to get nerfed into the ground" are wildly inaccurate. The unit does need adjustments, but the problem doesn't lie in the Reaper's special rules or point costs, it's in a combination of psychic support, certain Character's abiltiies, exarch wargear and unit size that the unit goes from solid/reasonable to clearly overpowered.

[ohgodsnakes]

Some good points. I do have a couple criticisms though.

Old AP3 is about -2 in 8th terms, not -4, so I think they're right on track that way. The way the kind of ported everything over kinda looks like AP5 (Bolters) went to AP0, Ap4 (autocannons) went to AP-1, AP3 (reapers, Battlecannon) went to AP-2, Ap2 (lascannons, plasma) went to -3, and ap 1 (melta) went to -4. In addition, with the change in how cover works. AP-2 is more powerful than old AP3 IMO.

I also think you're downplaying the negative hit modifiers, that's a huge thing, especially when combined with easy access to re-rolls on hits. I think your later point of decreasing maximum unit size would help with that though.

Your last point about cover is kind of moot for many larger things that Reapers will be targeting with their S8, 3 damage missiles. Because of the near impossibility of getting something like a Leaman Russ in cover AND 50% obscured, those tanks and monsters are getting hit on 3's (potentially re-rolling) wounded on 3's or 4's (again, potentially re-rolling) and then getting saves on 5+ most likely. A dreadnought is just dead in one volley, without ANY rerolls. A Russ is down to 3 wounds with Guide, and dead with doom. Heck, a Knight will lose half of its wounds statistically if doomed and guided, something pretty easy to get off with some of the most mobile psychers in the game. All of this from 48" away.

All in all, I think your suggestions for fixing them are good though.

[Jack Shrapnel]

Your misconception #1:

moving and shooting with no penalty is rare with that kind of heavy weapon. Tfexes can move and shoot with rupture cannons (their only heavy weapon option) at no to hit penalty, that is true. They also hit on 4+, cannot get reroll 1's if they move, and half their shots if they move. Hellblasters are plasma. Plasma has never been a heavy weapon. Guard tanks have always been able to move and fire normally - their BS again is garbage compared to Eldar. Every other codex can do this with zero penalty? ummm no... they can't. Guard can with less BS on their tanks, and Nids can with crap BS at half shots and no buffs. Onslaughting a tfex is super bad by the way. It has 48" range and garbage melee and loses half it's shots and reroll 1's. Moving it - even with the option, is much, much worse. So in 8th it is very rare to more and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty. Even MORE so with an infantry unit, who is able to benefit from cover improvements to their armor save.

Your misconception #2:

yep, they're overcosted. They got a point reduction from the index of NINE points per model. Think of any other unit that got that? The units you're comparing them two are easily removed by one turn of shooting from reapers. You are comparing their survivability to a LEMAN RUSS? a tank SHOULD be far more survivable than an elf on foot! Keep in mind that the reapers will remove or cripple said tank with one round of shooting and can stay (or move to) out of LOS to prevent any return fire.

Your misconception #3

 AP3 is -4 in 8th terms. No... no it's not. That's lascannons and meltas (AP2 and AP1 effectively). AP-4 isn't even attainable by some armies! (nids for example) AP-2 with 3 damage straight is better than hive guard, who are 48 points a model and have a 4+ save, can't move and shoot without penalty, no eldar buffs etc. And I'll admit hive guard are probably one of the BEST units in the nid codex and I happily pay the 48 points a model to include them in any list. The reaper gun is friggin fantastic. It's a HEAVY weapon - it Shouldn't also be able to take out single model hordes too! It's an (average math) equivalent to a missile launcher. Same AP, same average damage - reapers get the advantage of straight damage which is always better over time, a devastator with missile launcher get the possible 4+ on the damage roll at the risk of the 1-2. For more points. Can't move and shoot without penalty, can't ignore negative to hit modifiers, no Eldar moving buffs, no craftworld -1 to hit buff, etc. etc. etc.

The gun you're talking about ignores the entire abilities of some marine chapters, a 140 point character for the nids (that only gives a 3" buff!) and some armies only ability to protect their extremely expensive MC's (including primarchs). It's a BIG deal. Other heavy weapons are severely hampered by these abilities - not reapers!

Your real problems:

yes, those are all significant problems too. You should probably add the Altoic (sp?) craftworld trait in there too. Because if they're either out of LOS, in cover, moving to wherever they want AND deleting units, you HAVE to kill the reapers. Giving them a blanket -1 to hit beyond 12" (where they'll always be unless they're being played extremely poorly) is just table flipping level frustrating.

How to deal with them: (it's way more difficult than you think if they're being played correctly)

okay if they're really good at min sized and really good at large size can't you just admit that they're really good no matter what? AP-2 is REALLY GOOD. being in cover helps unless the eldar player has...I don't know... psychic powers? People aren't as scared about heavy bolters because they stand in cover and there's no AP. You get to still get AP (even assuming you don't use spells). That's good.

T3 is still wounded by the majority of weapons on a 3+. In cover you're getting a 2+ (or just getting out of LOS) and if you can stack a -2 to hit, a LOT of armies are hitting you on 6's at that point - ie: snapfiring.

I agree at some counters though - snipers are super good. Here's some more specific to certain armies of course:

- stormravens/fire raptors. Shoot the piss out of them or they'll take you out.
- Thunderfire cannons/hive guard - in case they're playing LOS games
- drop and charge units (stealers/daemons/blood angels etc.) hold back and wait for your opening then take them out, or consolidate in if the bubble wrap is close enough to avoid the overwatch.
- weight of fire - you're going to wound them on 3's unless you're a guardsmen, however if you're playing guard shoot them with the baneblade's Vulcan mega bolter - problem solved.
- nerfing the psychic support is usually harder than taking out the unit itself due to character protection - but given Yvraine is a given in this type of dirty list - you have to either take her out, or all the dark reapers, (actually both) or you just lose.


conclusions: They're going to be corrected in the next FAQ update. I can guarantee it. Do you know why? Because Reese/Frankie all the Frontline Gaming guys are GW's playtesters and they are getting a TON of blowback over this because they playtested it. Navanati actually calls Reece out as the reason for the list RIGHT ON HIS ARMY LIST SHEET. LVO is their flagship for "proving" competitive 40k should be supported by GW, yet the GW representatives on site were NOT happy with what went down at LVO (one of the guys over at tyranid hive was sitting with these guys at LVO and saw their reactions) and how one sided the army representation was at the top 8. GW has been touting a more balanced game than ever and trusts these guys to help ensure it!

EVERY unit in 8th that has dominated the meta unfairly and was unbalanced has been nerfed into the ground by GW in short order. Smite spam, brimstones, malefic lords, fliers, conscripts, etc. etc.

reapers are NOT immune to this. And neither is Ynarri. I expect BOTH to be getting major corrections at the next update, if not sooner.

[Frosty the Pirate]

I absolutely agree they probably need a points bump likely in the 2-5 points per dude range. Even reverting these guys back to index prices won't "Fix" the problem, because the problem is unit efficiency while on the table, not unit cost to bring them.

Just to re-summarise what I'm trying to get at:

1) Reapers absolutely need an adjustment, they will probably get a minor points bump, but that isn't the main solution to this problem.

2) Squad Size is the biggest problem, Max 6 Reapers per squad prevents psychic support from kicking the dial on these guys up to 13. A unit of 6 dudes with Doom & Guide is plenty devastating and makes the unit good, but not crazy.

3) The Tempest Launcher is clearly broken. 2D6 shots for +5 points that ignore LOS is stupid. That 100% needs a straight nerfhammer swing. Make it 2D3 shots and it'll fix it imo, but if they want to do it through points then it's going to need a huge bump to be remotely fair.

4) Reapers only got their ignore to hit modifiers because they got it in-lieu of other buffs they previously had and it allowed the codex-wide fix of removing Heavy Weapons from Battle Focus, which overall has been good for Eldar balance. (I'm not saying they are perfect, I'm saying it's a lot better than previously). They might get an equivalent of Slow & Purposeful, they might get Ignores Cover, they might just get move & shoot.

5) You probably have a point about the Str 8 missiles, maybe I'm just silly because I rarely use them, I've always found putting Reaper shots into Bikers/Infantry was most effective with multiple shots and good AP. Through now that you don't have to pay for the Str 8 shots and they come stock that probably is more an issue than I'm seeing.

6) Ynarri are ridiculous and need a full on swing of the nerfhammer. I expect a huge change here.


I want to emphasise that I didn't write this because I'm going "Please dun nerf muh reapers!!!1!". I wanted to write this to help generate a discussion about some pieces of reapers that some people don't realise are major contributing factors to reapers being overpowered on the table top.

[voodoo]

How many points are Dark reapers right now?

For my "move and fire a heavy weapon Thousand Sons" I'm currently (and will continue to) paying:

18 for the body
15 for the gun (24" 4 shot S5 AP-3 D1)

If a Reaper is any less than 33 points per model they're too low cost. Yes, Thousand Sons have an invul save, but they do not have:

- more than one heavy weapon in the unit until there's 20 of them in the unit then I can have 2...
- 48" range
- always hit on 3's (I can be de-buffed by spells)
- multiple damage per shot
- Strength 8 on their heavy weapon
- The ability to add a secondary fire for hunting the unit type the primary use of the weapon wasn't designed for

And before you make the comparison of "But Reapers are a heavy choice and Thousand Sons are troops" yes, they are; but I don't even have the option to take a unit like this in my army so I've got to go with the lowest cost comparison I can get in my codex.

That above fact is likely why so many people dislike Eldar and feel like they should be a higher cost. Whereas most armies have to get creative on bringing the right units to do a particular job; Eldar can just pick one of many purpose-built units in their codex that perfectly suited for the role you want and also happens to pretty darn good at a few other jobs. It's just an added bonus that they're normally less points than our "purpose-built" units.

[Frosty the Pirate]

Reapers are currently 28 a piece. My thought is they will get bumped to between 30 and 33.

Most of the point reduction they got was in the basic cost of an aspect warrior body being reduced heavily. (About halved)

[voodoo]

In my opinion; if they keep everything they have now in terms of abilities they should be 45 each easy with still needing to purchase the gun upgrade for the anti-infantry shot.

[Frosty the Pirate]

So here's the problem. Let's say they do get absolutely hammered by GW to the 45 a piece you are suggesting, a fair price for the abilities of the unit. Internet Rejoices briefly.

(For the record, the S8 anti monster shot was the upgrade in the past. Reapers are suppose to be anti-infantry)

The LVO winning list trims a few spare points here and there, perhaps loses a few Reaper MSU units from the spearhead and has to juggle a few units around to regain the 1 CP from losing the spearhead, and then continues to absolutely crush people with Ynarri Soulburst Dominos.

The Reapers are only one piece in the combo, and increasing their cost doesn't break it. This Combo NEEDS to die.


(For those who don't know here's a brief of how the list works)

Step 1) Deploy Rangers forward to block opposing deepstrikes, reserve Spears & Guardians in Webway, Embark Reapers in Serpents for protection

Step 2) Use Phantasm Strategem to redeploy after you know if you are going first or not, pushing your Reapers forwards to have LOS.

Step 3) Deepstrike the Guardians to clear chaff/blockers with Soulburst, allowing guardians and rangers to shoot multiple times. Finishing things off due to bad-dice with Tempest Launchers to proc Soulburst on units as needed. You don't even care if the Guardians die afterwards because they've cleared all the screens & chaff.

Step 4) On Turn 2, bring in Spears via deepstrike. Use Psychic Powers on Spears to give them Bonuses to hit, 3++ invuls and 5+ FNP. Then use Cat Lady or Soulburst to advance them 22" with SaimHamm Strategem to allow advancing + charging. Shoot the target with S6 Lances and Doom and then multi-charge with S6 lances and Doom. Blasting the heart of opposing army in to tiny pieces, and likely murdering all character support in the process.

Step 5) Claim objectives, clear anything hiding on objectives out with Tempest Launchers.

The Reapers role is to proc the initial soulbursts that set the rangers/guardians off killing all the screening units, and then to proc the initial soulburst on the Spears (or remove something with a nasty overwatch that can kill the spears) sending them jetting off to murder everything left. Their secondary purpose is deepstrike defense when going second.

[Jack Shrapnel]

don't forget that nasty max reaper tactic with Ynarri

cat lady lets them shoot in the psychic phase (says does not stop them from shooting later)

10 reapers kill something

soulburst to kill something else

three shooting phases a turn from a max unit of reapers is absolutely brutal

sure the Ynarri can't do the same soulburst action more than once, but who cares?

[thesanityassassin]

I don't have time to write on this as fully as I want to given the 17 years I've played Eldar. I'mma get back with full thoughts later, but I need to say the ability to mix Craftworld traits with Ynnari powers is just busted. Having a -1 to hit backfield and then a giant bike assault unit that gets crazy movement boosts plus all the soulburst stuff is just crap.

I love Eldar. I love the fact they're advancing the story. The Soulburst mechanic is the stupidest thing that GW has ever created, and it will absolutely destroy the game if they don't just admit their mistake and fully rework it. Give them a power-from-pain chart like DE, or like...give a unit +1 Attack a turn or a FNP or something. Massive extra activations for units that are designed to be absurdly dedicated to a single task is wild.

[Khalai]

I was honestly hoping that soulburst was just going to disappear in 8th. I mean we straight up said no to it last year in 7th. Do dark reapers need to be more points? Sure they do, but soulburst/ynnari are the core of the problem and just need to go away. And I'm saying that with cat lady all built and painted up.

[darkeldarguy]

I agree reapers are a problem but the bigger problem is the ynarri with all the psychic powers and stratagems.

The guy who won the tournament stated his mvp was the shinning spears. Shinning spears on their own are good but amazing when you cast quicken plus protect plus fortune etc. With the soulburst on top of that they can get to anywhere on the table after deep striking. Add to that some very strong stratagems. What makes eldar so strong is that with the stratagems they have an answer to everything.

Not sure how to fix it other than limit the number of psychic powers you can cast on a single unit.

[raceygaming]

While a blob of shining spears is a great unit I didn't see any list bring 4-8 squads of them. They are a very strong support unit that can deal with lots of different unit type but obvious the dark reapers carried the list otherwise they wouldn't have 25 of them in a list.

Dark reapers are currently 27 pts NOT 28 ( 5 pts man + 22 pt gun) or 33 for tempest launcher ( 5 pt man+ 27 pt gun).

A fix that might push reapers back would be to change the Always hits on 3's to always hits on 4's, having a unit that can hit 50/50 is still very strong. It still better than a lot of other units and eldar still has a ton of support ability in the army and psychic phase to make them better.

Also in previous additions reapers didn't get the S8 option unless that paid points for it ( 7th ed 25 pts for a reaper that did 2x S5 shots or +8 pts to 33 pr for both S5 and S8 options), so right now a 27 pt model with both is a steal. I could see the reapers go up to 37 pts (+10 pts) if they keep all the rules the same with both fire modes.

Lastly and not an Eldar problem, the Ynarri do need to be re-examined in general. They took a serious nerf that cut their ability use in half and they still swept the top tables.
While I love the idea behind the Ynarri and the cult; it really needs a fix especially as the Dark Eldar codex arrives, if you think its bad with them poaching the best eldar units its gonna be really bad when they can also poach re-worked dark eldar. I think a simple solution that band-aids the problem would be a 100 pts hike to cat-lady or re-wording the shoot other phase spell, which seems to lead to a large abuse.

[Frosty the Pirate]

Soulburst becoming a tally like epidemimus could be a good halfway point, give them the unique flavour of kill count without the absurdity.

Add that to replacing <Craftworld> with <Ynarri> instead of adding it and things suddenly are a lot less crazy.

I would be shocked to see a nerf to Dark Reaper's ballistic skill. They are suppose to be masters of long range combat. Even the "lowly" guardian is 3+ to hit.

Another weird thought I had was Dark Reapers are suppose to be great at shooting things that moved fast. Maybe just tweaking their inescapable accuracy to read something like "This unit always hits on a 3+ against units that advanced or have the Fly keyword". (This was literally a random thought I had, I'm sure it's OP in some way I'm not thinking of)