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Post by StepwisePilot on Jun 21, 2020 20:40:31 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I don't understand this deep rules talk too well. I'm dumb, hahaha.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 22, 2020 7:04:09 GMT -5
I mean, cut them down was part of sweeping advances for many editions and years, a part of the game that really made melee extremely deadly to fall back from. The message it sent was clear, falling back from melee was a terrible terrible choice to make and it made melee threats extremely deadly. Which ever since their removal there has been no real downside to falling back.
I honestly would welcome back melee sweeping advances with open arms, but the rules definately would need to be updated to modern standards.
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Post by question on Jun 22, 2020 11:23:42 GMT -5
I'm with Frosty. Falling back with few or no consequences has been ridiculous.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 22, 2020 12:48:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I mean we're gunna have wild speculation until we have either a full rule set reveal or a leak, and reputable leaks won't happen until rulebooks are in-store.
I've been listening to the rumors and reveals and what the play testers are "saying without saying" as they are thoroughly muzzled by their NDAs, but some of the announcements like ITC will be switching to rulebook missions as-printed mean there's a lot of randomness being removed from the game, as ITC hates things like unbalanced objective placement and non-symmetrical deployments.
Some subtle things you might not think about based on actual reveals so far: (Frosty's brain churning)
1) There's a strategem for 2 CP to fall back with consequences.
This says to me "locked in combat" is coming back. They wouldn't make a 2CP stratgem for it if it wasn't substantially changed from it's current rules. Why would you spend 2CP if you can just move away?
Additionally, this says to me that you will no longer need a university degree in trigonometry to "pin" units in combat.
2) Overwatch is a Stratagem & Opponent Fights First
This makes hardly a difference for generalist units like Marines/Primaris who can shoot and fight equally well, but majorly nerfs units which shoot far better than their fight characteristics, while buffing melee focused units at the same time. The message here is clear to me, you shouldn't be afraid to charge someone because of the gun their holding.
This also says to me that falling back MUST have heavily changed, because otherwise this would mean that you'd be heavily motivated to fall back from every combat. It would mean that if you declare no charges, your opponent will get to activate their unit first and continue their assault from their previous turn.
3) Command Point Farming is Over
This makes perfect sense. I hereby declare SOUP lists dead (again). May they rest in pieces. If you want to take allies, you get disadvantages to go with your advantages. Again, perfectly fair. This should really reward mono-book-lists and really harshly punish cherry-picking. If you happen to really want to start a Guard army, you'll probably be able to pickup lots of packs of 32 used models pretty cheaply =P.
4) Vehicles and MCs are juggernauts
As they should be. A vehicle shouldn't suffer a penalty for moving and shooting the same way an infantry model carrying a rocket launcher does, in real life aircraft and tanks are quite literally designed to do this, so why wouldn't technology 38,000 years more advanced be capable of it. This is a good change, and one that especially excites me as I love me some tanks.
5) Points values going up (possibly quite significantly)
This makes sense to me. 2k points games were becoming really hard to finish quickly unless one side was very clearly just steamrolling or one player had ridiculously bad or good luck on their rolls. It also allowed you to bring a lot of 'toys' and many 2k forces would feature large amounts of redundancy and exceptionally brutal shooting firepower. By raising points values, we (hopefully) return back to the era of skirmish forces where you cannot expect your army to be capable of everything, and if you bring too many specialist forces you will struggle to play the objective game.
My gut says expect model counts to drop by 20% on average. This would approximately mean that what was previously a 2k list being closer to 2400 points, meaning you'll on average lose 2 units from your lists.
This will translate to faster games, and less ability to just alpha-strike your opponent off the table as the firepower/points ratio will drop, leading to increased durability of units previously thought to be too easy to kill.
That's what I've read between the lines for now. Can't wait to get a copy of the rulebook in hand to get back into things. I've missed warhammer the two-ish years I've been dormant. Can't wait to see some of you again in person!
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Post by trantos01 on Jun 22, 2020 13:20:30 GMT -5
That's what I've read between the lines for now. Can't wait to get a copy of the rulebook in hand to get back into things. I've missed warhammer the two-ish years I've been dormant. Can't wait to see some of you again in person! Yeah, here's hoping that within a month or two, things open up enough that Nexus can start letting us play games there again. Granted it's probably still going to be limited numbers of people allowed etc but it's still better then nothing. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 22, 2020 16:33:56 GMT -5
yeah, I miss playing so bad...
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Post by trantos01 on Jun 22, 2020 17:54:05 GMT -5
yeah, I miss playing so bad... With the new edition coming and the lockdown we should have any new models assembled and painted in time for us all to have some rousing/hair-tearing games learning all the new ins and outs.
Though I suspect there will be a lot of:
"Wait, that ability lets you do WHAT?" "Yeah, it's listed right here. See for yourself." "......Emperor dammit."
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Post by Typhus on Jun 22, 2020 19:20:58 GMT -5
1) There's a strategem for 2 CP to fall back with consequences. This says to me "locked in combat" is coming back. They wouldn't make a 2CP stratgem for it if it wasn't substantially changed from it's current rules. Why would you spend 2CP if you can just move away? Additionally, this says to me that you will no longer need a university degree in trigonometry to "pin" units in combat. The stratagem allows you to pass over other models when you fall back - it's expressly designed to avoid the situation where a melee army can pin you. There's no reason to think you can't otherwise fall back - indeed, because it prevents you from shooting, manifesting psychic powers, etc "even if you otherwise could" there's a strong implication that you can still fall back normally. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 23, 2020 12:40:44 GMT -5
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Post by trantos01 on Jun 23, 2020 16:10:17 GMT -5
Considering how integral terrain seems to be for 9e I can see most matches starting with a pow-wow of 'This terrain counts for X while that piece is Y etc'.
And monsters can enter strategic reserves huh? Surprise distraction Carnifex!
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 23, 2020 18:46:46 GMT -5
Surprise distraction Carnifex!
CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Post by trantos01 on Jun 23, 2020 19:11:02 GMT -5
CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nah, that's surprise Distraction Warhound Titan; very different grade of "Oh ***t!' for the opponent. Though I doubt we will be able to out-flank Lords of War. Or if we can, it'll be 5+ CP to pull off. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 24, 2020 14:42:56 GMT -5
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 24, 2020 14:58:21 GMT -5
CP to use reserves makes a lot of sense, a lot of armies already used abilities to place units into reserves they normally could not via stratagems during deployment, so it's not really a big change from that perspective.
However, the PL curve is quite steep. A squadron of vehicles or a large elite unit with high alpha strike potential is going to cost at least 2 or sometimes 3 CP on it's own to place in reserves.
It's pretty clear they want you to put your units on the table at deployment, unlike the old-days of editions like 5th where you could just put your whole army in reserve to shorten the game.
The morale phase changes seem fairly devastating at first glance, but I actually think it's pretty small. Say you've got a 10 man unit, and you take a nasty attack and lose 5 models. If you're leadership 8 then you're going to need to roll a 2 or less to pass that morale check, and if you fail, you roll 4 dice for the remaining 4 models, and statistically lose 1 more model, reducing you to 3 models.
Against larger units with bad leadership, say maybe a Cultist Horde, it's affects are a lot more apparent. Say you take fire and lose just 6 models. At leadership 7 you need a hard 1 to pass that morale test, failing you lose a 7th guy, and then rolling 13 dice you lose 2 or 3 more to morale, and end up with 10 or 11 models remaining
To me, this says you will see a lot less units sticking around with 1-2 surviving models, and units which lose more than half their strength in a single attack will almost certainly lose 1-2 more models to morale.
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Post by LizardTau on Jun 24, 2020 15:01:53 GMT -5
Power levels are changing but we dont know how that are changing.
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