Great Crusade Restrictions

[Jack Shrapnel]

Normally the Great Crusade tourney (coming up May 14th) has the following restrictions:

- Must have a named character as your warlord - harlies can use solitaire (but are now folded into the Eldar codex so probably not required as an exception any longer), GSC can use patriarch - as they don't have any special characters. 
- No forge world
- No supreme commanders (ie primarchs and the like)
- No titanic (monoliths excepted)

I've had it proposed now by two separate people that some of these restrictions be lifted... so as usual I put it to you in the community to decide. 

You can click up to three of the restrictions to keep... or click the NO RESTRICTIONS box instead. 

[Frosty the Pirate]

This post isn't meant to start a debate in detail about the game balance or "what if this unit", I'm just adding detail to my personal poll selections.

Ever since the forge world compendium dropped and each army's forgeworld units started to get updated upon codex release / FAQ / dataslate cycles now, I feel forgeworld is "becoming more mainstream" and the units are not as wildly imbalanced as in the past, and we _could_ consider allowing them.

However, it's one thing to allow Tyberos The Red Wake, but it's a whole other ballpark when people could show up with a Harridan or some other massive "pseudo-titan" unit to what is generally considered one of our beginner-friendly events.

In addition, Primarchs/Supreme-Commanders are very advantageous in this particular event since they often are incredibly potent and the smaller points size of the event (generally 1250 or 1500 in recent years) makes them "a little too-good" in my humble opinion for the specifics of this event. I realize that could seem to be an unpopular opinion since a lot of our community does own these types of powerhouse characters because they are super cool models! But I can't help but feel like allowing them would just purely outclass the "normal" named characters this event feels like it is meant to bring out that generally don't see much play otherwise.

[mrmanstory]

The Supreme commander/primrarch thing is a bit tricky because mortarion is a huge pain at 1500 points where as guilliman isn't that big of an extra buff to have and honestly is outshined by other characters in the book.

[voodoo]

MrManStory, in the past; that's why it was a blanket restriction that none of them were allowed; and I have to agree to continue that. Mortarion is a big pain at that point level, no differently than Ghaz, Silent King, etc. etc. Same as Forgeworld or titanic units. If you have an all knight army, take the field; that's a bunch of tough customers to handle at the 1500 mark.

Not to mention, the Great Crusade is one of the two friendlier tournaments.

[mrmanstory]

I definitely accept I may be biased based on how much I like the primarch models. I don't even plan on bringing a Supreme commander. I totally understand why it's necessary for a blanket restriction over "well you can take this one and that one but not the rest"

[cmcd]

I have no problems with titanic's at 1500 for this tournament. It's someones great crusade they should be allowed to bring some heavy hitters.

There are a lot of characters out there. I think removing any unit with the Supreme Commander keyword is appropriate. \

Also if you plan on removing Titanics entirely, I think removing the Monolith exception. That exception was from 8th edition when it was a titanic but also a Heavy choice. Now in 9th being a full LoW it probably should not be kept in.

[raceygaming]

It looks like I'm in the vast minority here but Ill put in my 2 cents and hopefully sway some hearts and minds.

I think that Crusade has been and should be more of a goofy fun tournament that makes players think about some building restrictions, outside of that I'm open to anything. I think we should let people have the most freedom to find something cool and thematic. I would prefer to see list submissions if people think their list isn't in the spirit rather than flat bans.

I Would love to see Supreme Commands in this format, the idea is bring your named characters and who is more iconic than your big bad! Obviously not all are created equal with morty and shadowsun now being in the same category but let the rest of the list reflect that.
Morty, a lord and 35 plague mairnes! I'll gladly play that. Now morty 3x PBC and a terminator deathstar at 1500 pts not so much fun.

For Titanic/Super heavies there is just a wide gap for them I think a flat ban isn't in the spirit. I'd love to get my trash Gargantuan squiggoth back on the table but its a super heavy that is pretty trash. often banned in fluffy tournaments but not worth trying in serious play. Also as pointed out things like the monolith are not worth a ban.
Knights HAVE to take Canis Rex - who is awful, and then 2 big and 2 little OR 7 little or some mix. That really isn't a big issue and lets people play the armies they want. I'd say in the titanics and and just tell tau players maybe leave big Tuna at home for this one ( or another powerful super heavy I may have missed). Also does any one have a baneblade? I played one last weekend and they are truly trash. Id encourage some one to try and make a good list around it.

Lastly FW. This is a point of contention for me as I have a friend who got into 40K cause he liked Custodes and if you say NO FW then that's 2/3 of their options gone and most of the FW custodes are the weaker options...hello 9 bikes and trajan (925 pts BTW) is going to be more miserable then most other armies. I think as new codex come out the FW lack of updates has made them a joke in many factions. Id love to play vs some Tau Hazard suits they look like crap next to Crisis suits but they are FW so they are banned?

In the end I think a new player is going to have a more miserable time play vs the new Avater of Khaine and 230 pts of his tooled up buddies then a 500 pt morty BUT the big takeaway for me is bring something cool that you want to play and if you pick something powerful try to challenge yourself to find a way to nerf the rest of your army to keep it more fun. If you are new enough to the game that you aren't sure where that balance is then play test it or ask for advance on the forum list making section.

[Jack Shrapnel]

I will add, that if supreme commanders WERE to be allowed, that's the end of the boss fight final game.

it's just not fair to pit Morty vs. Tigirus

or... any surpreme commander vs. a regular normal special character.

[raceygaming]

That sounds fair. I guess I was not thinking of balancing around the boss fight since it's kinda a fun little mini game for a few points.

We have had some pretty lop sided ones before like pask vs darkstrider but that round is all in good fun

[LizardTau]

Apr 12, 2022 16:41:59 GMT -5 raceygaming said:

That sounds fair. I guess I was not thinking of balancing around the boss fight since it's kinda a fun little mini game for a few points.

We have had some pretty lop sided ones before like pask vs darkstrider but that round is all in good fun

I remember ghaz vs the changeling. Ouch lol

[redshirt2375]

I will always remember battling against Alyssa with Jain Zar vs my poor little Masque of Slaanesh

[Jack Shrapnel]

I do hear what you're saying though Jordan about Forge world... the problem is, for every Hazard suit out there that is not great, you have other units that can be fairly gross... but again, I don't really see MUCH forgeworld out there that isn't a superheavy or knight variant etc.

I absolutely agree with you though, that a forge world chaos character (the impaler guy for example) isn't going to be anywhere near the power level of the avatar... he's pretty bonkers (even made my wraith army win a game for once...yes, against morty)

I'm honestly not entirely sure what is OP or not in the crazy world of 9th edition. Are the custodes forgeworld stuff any less insane than the bikes or shield captain? Are just base harlequins better than anything forgeworld has?

I'm pretty set on no titanic. But I'm kind of unsure on the forgeworld restriction to be honest.

You really gave me alot to think about on this.

One possibility I just thought of was a blanket "no single model can be above X points" restriction. This would cover most OP stuff, including all titanic etc. (I mean even nightbringer is pretty crazy to deal with, but under the current system, could be in every list?)

I don't think any point cut off that is reasonable is going to lead to Bobby G or Ghaz be part of it.

Just kinda spitballing ideas here. I'm fully willing to run things as is, or with a new lens... but I do need to get the details to Mike this week.

PS: I'm bringing deathleaper if I get to play... lol... so have no vested interest in the permission to bring anything big. 

[raceygaming]

Also I think in the next week or two there is going to be the balance patch so I'm not sure what our goal line looks like.
I'm hoping for some janky lists even if they have some powerful models in them

[lightcavalier]

Apr 12, 2022 19:35:44 GMT -5 raceygaming said:

Also I think in the next week or two there is going to be the balance patch so I'm not sure what our goal line looks like.
I'm hoping for some janky lists even if they have some powerful models in them

Typically Wednesday....so hopefully tomorrow

Eldar FAQ and IA update should also drop soon

[cmcd]

The other option is to restrict detachments.. No super heavy aux and no super heavy and no supreme command detachments. This would keep all low and strong commanders out. Just a thought