Rules Query (General)

[shasodnarb]

This came up in a game this week...

I simultaneously inflicted two explosion results against an enemy vehicle. Although we agreed at the time only one actual explosion (with associated effects) happened, is this correct or should two explosions have occurred?

[redshirt2375]

It would only explode once since you apply the results one at a time.

To make the game quicker you just roll all the dice at once and pick the highest if it's a destroyed result since any other results at that point are redundant.

At least that is how it's always been ruled since I've been playing.

[timzeentch]

Funny you should ask that. That just came up in a Beasts Of War video this week.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pmdFi-ncaM

I'd have to agree with redshirt2375. I think if a tank was to explode into a million pieces, it could only happen once.

You can't get super immobilize right if you score two 4's right?

[shasodnarb]

I disagree.

You can't get super immobilize right if you score two 4's right?

True, but it says very specificially in the description for immobilized that further immobilized results count as weapon destroyed instead. There is no such modifier for explodes results.

In addition, it also describes that the vehicle is not removed until after the explosion. Since the multiple results occur from one unit's firing and are therefore simultaneous, then both explosions would occur and then the vehicle would be removed.

Moreover, on the same page, it also very specifically says that for each shot that pens/glances, a D6 is rolled and the result is consulted.

Therefore, as an example, I believe this indicates that if my Tau Crisis squad fired at an Eldar Vyper and got two explodes results, then there would be two simultaneous explosions.

I'm trying to find something in the BRB that would indicate otherwise but I've been unable to do so.

[danydaigle24]

Where does it say you apply result one at a time. It says they are all cumulative.

[redshirt2375]

This, unfortunately, is one of those things that can be argued to death for both sides due to wording and the joys of RAW vs RAI and GW's lack of grammar skills.

The last part of the rule is the part that implies the "1 at a time" theory since it states you "look up the result" not results. Or could even be argued that there can be only 1 result from your dice rolls.

The "all at once" can be argued since they start by saying "roll a d6 for each shot that glanced/pen'd the vehicles armour, apply..." which is like the shooting rules which state for speed of play all dice should "ideally" be rolled at once....doesn't actually say that you have to roll them altogether (but no one would get many games if they rolled one dice at a time ) It actually states you can roll for each weapon or shooter separately if you want to.

Where does it say you apply result one at a time. It says they are all cumulative.

This part of the rule refers to modifiers, not the shots themselves (as in you would add +1 for AP 1 and another +1 for open-topped)

Every where I've played has always treated an explosion as a one time deal since once the first explosion is resolved the vehicle no longer exists. As the rules are permissive in nature (if it doesn't say you can you can't) and only the Weapon Destroyed/Immobilize results have rules stating how you are to apply multiple results, the other results can only be applied once (which is how it's usually argued on other forums when things of this nature come up)

Though after being at Games Day a couple times now, I've never seen any GW run game apply multiple explosions, nor heard of it every being applied at a GT in any country.

In the end, it comes down to what you and your opponent agree to, or what the organizer rules on the situation.

[shasodnarb]

Sadly, because there are so many ridiculous grey areas in GW's rules, it's impossible to clarify everything with your opponent beforehand. That said, I suppose a reasonable compromise in this situation would be to roll all of the radii, take the highest, and treat it thereafter as one explosion.

Since I'm new to the hobby, I hope other players in the area would be reasonable with this sort of compromise. As a new player, it's hard to take these things into account... when players opt not to follow RAW and instead do their best to rationalize what they construe as grey areas.

I just hope people don't make judgements based simply upon what they're used to doing.

[Jack Shrapnel]

It wouldn't really make any sense whatsoever for a vehicle to blow up twice... no where in the rules does it say that... and as Randy says, warhammer is a permissive rule set... doesn't say it does, so it doesn't.

[redshirt2375]

Crap...2 responses while I tried to clear up my original post

[danydaigle24]

Me too Ive always played only one explosion but the rulebook is not clear.

[redshirt2375]

That said, I suppose a reasonable compromise in this situation would be to roll all of the radii, take the highest, and treat it thereafter as one explosion.

Have to say this is an interesting resolution. Though does that mean you roll twice for wounding any squad in side? or would they have to check twice for pinning on a Wreck result?

I just hope people don't make judgements based simply upon what they're used to doing.

In some cases that is exactly what you will get with some organizers. You're also going to get a lot of different views from a lot of different players and they all read the same rule differently. Most will do their best to be fair, but unfortunately you get a lot of people who take this game too seriously and forget it's a game and will bend every rule they can to win.

Best example ever was the UKGT where a coordinator ruled that an army was un-attackable in close combat because the units were all base to base behind each other. Reasoning was that since you can't be within 1" of a unit you aren't assaulting and the standard base is less than 1" in diameter, assaulting the front unit would put you within 1" of a unit you weren't assaulting so therefore you couldn't assault. Clearly not RAI, but a huge case of being way to RAW. Needless to say no one has ever made the ruling again to my knowledge. And I'm pretty sure the guy who made the argument in the first place doesn't have too many friends anymore if he's playing that kind of game.

[shasodnarb]

does that mean you roll twice for wounding any squad in side? or would they have to check twice for pinning on a Wreck result?

Imho, I still think that if my squad inflicts two destroyed results, then there are two explosions, with all associated effects.

However, if I was required to compromise, then I would be comfortable with only one group of rolls for wounds and that sort of thing, just to be amicable.

[Jack Shrapnel]

Your solution of take the highest radius frankly is not allowed by the rules. Neither is your idea that there is somehow simultaneous explosions.

If I were your opponent and you tried something like that with me, there would be no way I'd allow it.

[thesanityassassin]

I know it's falling dangerously close to the "keep doing what they've always done" thing, but I've played in ALOT of events with ALOT of people, including GW design staff (Adam Troke and Gav Thorpe) and have never seen mention of multiple explosions. I really think it's an attempt to find something in the rules that simply isn't there.

But to be safe, I've gone through my secret channels to get an out and out answer from someone who DEFINITELY knows. More on that when I get an answer (assuming my secret channels are still open)

[shasodnarb]

Let's say I got five explosion results from my Crisis squad's firing; I find it unusual that I am only permitted to roll one single dice for all five explosion results, especially when I achieved those five results at the same time.

After all, as we all know, there is a specific sequence in shooting at vehicles: the entire unit's shooting tries to hit the vehicle, then the entire unit's shooting tries to pen/glance, and then the entire unit's shooting consults the damage table... but oh wait, we don't all agree on the last part. I'm trying to understand why not.

To illustrate this, what happens if my Tau Crisis squad happens to get a wrecked and explodes result against an enemy vehicle? Well, the thing explodes, of course, right? ...but getting a 5 and 6 result on the chart doesn't tell me anything about sequence. However, if it wasn't simultaneous, then it could become wrecked and the explodes result wouldn't count because you can't explode a wreck. That can't be right. Therefore, the results must be simultaneous.

Anyway, for what it's worth, I hope nobody gets reactive and snarky with me. I'm not trying to abuse the rules; as a new player, I'm just trying to figure out how to play by them.