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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 1, 2022 13:33:25 GMT -5
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Dec 1, 2022 14:36:55 GMT -5
Jeez, that's a win rate we haven't seen in a while. Hold on to your buttcheeks flamers, the nerfhammer is inbound.
Looks like 7 factions outside their 10%WR spread range, 2 with going to get nerfs and 4 likely receiving buffs + Astra's inbound codex
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Post by voodoo on Dec 1, 2022 14:43:33 GMT -5
I'm still really surprised at how much they're caring about what's happening in the game at any given time nowadays. It's a refreshing change from my historical experience.
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Dec 1, 2022 15:57:42 GMT -5
Doesn't look too bad all things considered. Flamer nerfs are an obvious first step, and we can put to bed the idea that Votann were overnerfed (there may be some internal work to do but the core army functionality is there).
Space marines of all flavours need some help and admech... have they undone all the OG nerfs yet? That would be a start lol
Also, I think we were all expecting the dataslates to fall off anytime a new codex came out, but good to have it clarified. Thank goodness this is not the universe where they decided to have the hotfix mechanics more permanent than their associated codexes - that'd be confusing as all hell.
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Post by Typhus on Dec 1, 2022 17:25:41 GMT -5
They undid all of the Adeptus Mechanicus nerfs - some people were fearful this would make them OP again, but uh... that didn't happen.
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Post by distractedcarnifex on Dec 2, 2022 7:04:16 GMT -5
It is good to see that they track this, but that Tzeench winrate shows that something is not working in their design process from a balance perspective.
Regarding Marines, maybe we are still paying for Iron Hands 8.5? Or is it that we are all noobs?
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Post by LizardTau on Dec 2, 2022 7:15:32 GMT -5
The thing with marines us that they are usually the first or near first to get a codex. So as new codexes come out they get long in the tooth. Start out strong but a new ones come out and things get balanced it seems to balance higher then the marines. As well as they are there longer so people know how to counter them.
I believe. I may be wrong but that's what I think anyway.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 2, 2022 7:56:20 GMT -5
The Tsons + flamers list right now is pretty oppressive and is the build that "Tzeentch" is getting the 70% winrate (chaos daemons, although doing well aren't nearly as powerful as this one combo)
Flamers need a pretty significant adjustment. When I tried the triple flamer build out (as a harder tourney list) it was pretty unfun for the opponent. Either a points hike or change their daemon save to a 4+ at ranged.
They've really struggled this edition to balance marines for some weird reason. AOC certainly helps, but really it boosted sisters WAY more than marines, which is weird when you think of it. I'm not saying I want the game to go back to 5th edition grey knights or anything... but if any army should be easy to balance at a 50% winrate it should be the "standard" army of 40k right?
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Post by sean on Dec 2, 2022 8:09:40 GMT -5
Have they actually rolled back all the Ad Mech points changes? Certainly the changes to command points are still hurting them. Ad-Mech is such a complicated book that it is very hard to have it be decent in the hands of a casual player but not op in the hands of a master. It will be tough to fix with just points changes, although reducing the cost of the non-core stuff could help them just get more on the table, while still limiting the super power combos.
Marines just need to be cheaper. They are still labouring under their initial points raises, from when they were the “ latest over powered 9th Ed codex”. Drop everything back to codex points costs, and below for some under played units and I think Marines are in an ok spot. Stratagems aren’t great, but they have excellent warlord traits and relics. So you just spend everything pre game and then use transhuman every turn.
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Dec 2, 2022 9:44:39 GMT -5
Honestly at this point it looks like it would be safe for the tac marine to just be 15 points as the baseline again for marine price tags. You could even give it the CSM extra attack and it probably wouldn't really matter. The ambient power level is just a lot higher than it was at the beginning of 9th.
Like if you reframe how plague marines are pointed as an example, that free equipment sort of means that per marine bod (they're actually better than marines natively but for the sake of arguement) they're only paying about 11 points a body and... it's enough to make them playable but they're pretty far from OP. It's a little nuts to think about but we seem to be in a world where you could just give every intercessor and tactical marine a free plasma gun without breaking anything.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Dec 2, 2022 10:10:19 GMT -5
Watching the interview, there's a bit of an undertone to the section where they were talking about how primary scoring is almost always a draw right now and winners often come down to secondary effeciency, which leads me to believe they are going to look at making primary scoring a bit more volatile.
I'm going to play wait-and-see on the points changes. I can't see them doing anything drastic, can't help but feel it'll be a bunch of small changes like Unit X shaves off 1ppm, Unit Y shaves of 2ppm, etc etc. On the armies that need a lot of help it'll add up, but overall it'll be fairly light tuning imo.
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Post by lightcavalier on Dec 2, 2022 10:14:49 GMT -5
Watching the interview, there's a bit of an undertone to the section where they were talking about how primary scoring is almost always a draw right now and winners often come down to secondary effeciency, which leads me to believe they are going to look at making primary scoring a bit more volatile. I'm going to play wait-and-see on the points changes. I can't see them doing anything drastic, can't help but feel it'll be a bunch of small changes like Unit X shaves off 1ppm, Unit Y shaves of 2ppm, etc etc. On the armies that need a lot of help it'll add up, but overall it'll be fairly light tuning imo. Make objectives held by ob-sec units worth more points than ones held by non-ob sec  |
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Dec 2, 2022 10:28:26 GMT -5
Watching the interview, there's a bit of an undertone to the section where they were talking about how primary scoring is almost always a draw right now and winners often come down to secondary effeciency, which leads me to believe they are going to look at making primary scoring a bit more volatile. I'm going to play wait-and-see on the points changes. I can't see them doing anything drastic, can't help but feel it'll be a bunch of small changes like Unit X shaves off 1ppm, Unit Y shaves of 2ppm, etc etc. On the armies that need a lot of help it'll add up, but overall it'll be fairly light tuning imo. Make objectives held by ob-sec units worth more points than ones held by non-ob sec Boy that would be a real kick in the teeth for marines lol. My experience so far with AoS suggests to me that rewarding people just for having an army with a good troops slot is just doubling down on the unfairness. Troops tax is already sorta lame I'd rather the units be useful than forcing people to take them for metagame reasons (not a fan of line in heresy for the same reason). |
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Post by voodoo on Dec 2, 2022 11:01:45 GMT -5
If they make ObSec objectives worth more, then Necrons would be completely OP without a balancing (or complete removal) of Eternal Conquerors. Having an entire army besides C'Tan as ObSec would be hideously oppressive in that existence. Even if ou did ObSec AND Core, they'd still dominate; unless really nerfed down with what units have the ability to gain ObSec and/or Core keywords.
I could see them doing something slightly similar to the old "your opponents objectives are worth mroe than your own" from editions past. Hold 1, hold 2, Hold more = 2, 6 or 10 points, if one held objective is in no mans land add one point, if one is in your opponents deployment zone; add 2, THEN layer in the bonus points based on the mission. If nothing else, it would further disparage the castling and force people to get across the board (or die trying) in order to try actually fighting for as many points as possible.
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Post by lightcavalier on Dec 2, 2022 12:34:43 GMT -5
Just take the HH mission where objectives points are randomly determined at the end of the game....and watch the world burn
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