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Post by calitom on Oct 8, 2011 1:39:12 GMT -5
I've been mulling about with a home grown character concept for awhile now and think I just about got him to the point where I like him. I feel I've kept him balanced in regards to stats, effects and points cost and it actually gives a worthwhile Captain choice if people would be cool with me using it in friendly games. Either way, here he is - looking for some feedback!
Brother Captain Lucifer 235 Points Weapon Skill 6 Ballistics Skill 5 Strength 4/6 Toughness 4 Wounds 3 Initiative 5 Attacks 4 Leadership 10 Saves 2+ / 3++
Storm Shield Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Artificier Armour Spear of Sanguinius
May equip a Jump pack for 5 points
Feel no Pain Furious Charge Rites of Battle Eternal Warrior Independent Character And they Shall Know no fear
The Spear of Sanguinius is of the Chapter's most sacred relics, gifted to Lucifer by Chapter Master Dante after striking down the Bloodthirster Ka'Bandha during the battle of Baal Secundus in 999.M41. It would be known as his token of office as the new Captain of First Company, now named Lance of Baal.
Forged from a portion of the weapon used by the Primarch, the Spear of Sanguinius is a Master Crafted Power Spear, granting the user +2 STR in close combat, ignores armour saves and allows Lucifer to reroll one missed attack per turn. Seeing a relic revered as such, the Spear of Sanguinius pushes those of the chapter to further lengths, granting friendly models within 6'' the Furious Charge and Feel no Pain USRs.
Here's the short term rules for the Spear itself if you don't wanna get caught up in the fluff aspect of it :
Spear of Sanguinius - Master Crafted Ignores Armour Saves Grants +2 STR to user in Close Combat 6'' Aura grants friendly models FNP / FC
Yes, his special rules looks like a long list - though really FC and FNP are granted by his spear. In the USR department I'm not sure if Rites of Battle pushes him over, but I don't think using his Leadership 10 would really be all that impacting, it's more or less a Captain rule I felt GW shouldn't have taken away from the Captains.
Lemme know what you think!
Edit : Lowered Initiative to 5, still stuck on whether or not Heroic Intervention really makes the points too cheap for what he gets... Dropped lance off of the Spear chuck.
Dumped fearless, the spear chuck and heroic intervention. Increased his points cost by 20.
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Post by LizardTau on Oct 8, 2011 5:03:03 GMT -5
he deffinatly looks like a beast. with 3 wounds 2+/3++ eternal warrior and fnp he deffintaly going to be staying around for a while. My first impression is OP much with the melta lance. but then once you think about it he is very expensive, like Draigo is only 60 more points and he has str 10 verys psychers and makes paladins troop choises and such so. The price does put him in more prespective since your paying for almost a land raider you should get something that seems a little out there is powers cause you get what you pay for. I would say i would allow him in games to play test you may find out that ether he isn't as good or way better then he looks on paper in actual play.
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Post by Admiral Agrippa on Oct 8, 2011 6:43:06 GMT -5
Personally I've never been a fan of people's own created characters. Usually they're extremely overpowered and under priced and used to fill holes in an army that the person wants stopped. GW is the only entity that should be allowed to unbalance the game (and they like to do so often enough).
However, in only friendly games it could stand to some worth to play test him and see what he is truly capable of.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 8, 2011 7:41:02 GMT -5
At first look, he seems a little underpointed to be honest... he's got a pretty long list of abilities, and whether some are granted from the spear or not... well that's neither here nor there given he can't lose the spear right? I was comparing him to both what you could build for a space marine captain (but then how to account for the special rules) and then other options such as Astorath....(your guy has a better I, one more attack, better invul a ranged melta weapon, heroic intervention, the boosting 6" bubble and eternal warrior for 5 points less - same cost if you use the jump pack) Mind you I'm more than willing to test the guy out and see what'll happen... I may be totally wrong
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Post by calitom on Oct 8, 2011 8:46:54 GMT -5
Yeah, Shannon. That's what I was worried about. Was debating dropping off Heroic Intervention and the lance portion of the Spear chuck. The big thing I see as to Astorath's points being so high is that very coveted FoC change that he brings, much to the same as Dante, Draigo, Crowe, etc. It directly impacts your army organization and usually results in a huge tax on the character itself. He also has an immediate buff that directly impacts your army even if you don't bring Death Company in the 1-3 Red Thirst rolls, saving on what I call the Blood Angel Priest Tax. Probably a better comparison would be Gabriel Seth mixed with a priest IMO.
Though perhaps lowering his initiative by 1 and possibly dropping the aforementioned things would bring him a little closer to where I'm picking his points at? (So dropping Heroic intervention, though I thought it'd be really neat to have a character with it in the Blood Angels book- since I was incredibly dissapointed the new Deep Striking centric Dante doesn't have it) as well as lance off of the Spear chuck to bring him a little closer to what Seth would cost but the spear and storm shield being the primary difference in points.
Edit : Yeah, it seems like dropping the Initiative and Heroic intervention brought him a little more in line, now the next question - Does the spear chuck really warrant staying or should that just go too?
The way that I was pricing it initially Shannon was based on a Vanilla codex Captain (Since the BA book's Captains for some reason can't take Relic Blades or Artificier armour) and the price difference coming from that priced much in the way of a mix of what eternal warrior costs in other codices (Space Wolves) and a priest's cost thrown in. So what we're looking at is :
100 base captain cost, 15 points storm shield, 15 points Artificier armour, 35 points Eternal warrior, and the spear being an extra 50 point tax (price of a whole Sanguinary Priest due to it's ability).
I think I got him well pinned for that, but yeah- the HI and extra stats would have put him over... though only marginally due to the extra attack and Initiative. Would be around 30 points equivalent for 1 WS, 1 wound, 1 initiative and 1 attack (Directly comparing the HQ Reclusiarch Chaplain and Elite Chaplain in the BA codex) So here, we'll do this : Up his wounds by 1 and bump his price by 30. So he'll be at normal initiative for a character (5) but get an extra attack and wound a la Seth's stats, but with the different flavor of army buffs and equipment thus directly impacting the points cost.
Though I dunno, the 245 points cost seems a bit much for what he does. Even directly comparing him to say Mephiston or Dante as they're the two character closer in points cost. I'll drop his wounds back down to 3, drop fearless and leave him otherwise at 225 points (230 with jump pack). At that point he costs the same as dante, but has 1 less wound, 1 less attack ultimately (due to not having dual CCW) and 1 less initiative, doesn't give the FoC buffs Dante does nor the enemy HQ debuff but gives his own set of buffs that would be worthwhile.
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Post by BewareOfTom on Oct 8, 2011 9:57:50 GMT -5
well one thing I would say, dont make it as though it was the same spear saguinius used, make it so its like part of the blade is the same or something, because I cant think of anything that really survived from then and the give around and not just keep in saftey
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Post by calitom on Oct 8, 2011 10:03:24 GMT -5
Done and done, thanks Tom.
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Post by BewareOfTom on Oct 8, 2011 10:07:12 GMT -5
kk, just gives it a nicer flow to me anyways, cause almost everything is parts of what they had before. Just stood out like a black templar with a yellow helmet
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Post by garrett on Oct 8, 2011 11:34:49 GMT -5
I would let you use em. But if were playing the same army as you can we use him???
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Post by calitom on Oct 9, 2011 1:15:15 GMT -5
Use him against me in friendly games? For sure you'd be able to if you wanted. Ultimately it'd be nice to get him to the point where everyone's agreed that he's fine for any friendly games regardless of who it was playing him with their BA army. Seems close enough, but testing is needed to find out.
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Post by LizardTau on Oct 9, 2011 5:33:49 GMT -5
yes, to the testing tables!!!!! lol
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Post by trevor on Oct 9, 2011 8:30:16 GMT -5
realy wish the iron hands had an independent character their the only founding chapter that dosent. .
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Post by LizardTau on Feb 11, 2012 8:46:29 GMT -5
was thinking about this the other day and thought i would see if you ended up testing or tweeking it, or if you just dropped it
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Post by calitom on Feb 11, 2012 18:27:17 GMT -5
Haven't tested or tweaked him yet... will at some point, though eh- IA opens up a lot of options that really makes up for not doing this.
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Post by BewareOfTom on Feb 11, 2012 19:47:47 GMT -5
yeah I'd actually like to see IA in games, at least the newer stuff
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