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Post by empirearmy on Apr 8, 2012 6:01:16 GMT -5
So, I have seen too many changes to the Empire list and almost none for the better. This was my favorite army both Fluff and game play. Lets have a look at why they suck now.
1. For all the buffs from characters you need a lot of them, that cuts down on points spent keeping them alive. i.e. magic items.
2. War altar is only stubborn and only the war altar has a 4+ ward not the guy on top.
3. Points increase to most infantry, and why, did they get any better...no they did not.
4. Detachments, sure points cost now count as core or special but they cause panic now and no auto flank charge, they take penalties to stand and shoot....so they suck.
5. Greatswords and flagellants went up in point cost and they didn't change at all. These are now possibly the worst special choices in the game.
6. Mortar is now S2(6). so if it hits dead centre of a hoard on average it will cause 8-10 wounds on T3 models, and only a -1 to their save.
7. Warrior Priests have awesome prayers, sure, I agree, but they have to use dice. Those dice take away from your real casters. Which should be life and you need those dice to make lore of life work.
8. Rare choice maigc wagons..WTF?....they cost $70 and might not even work well. Sure the buffs are great but the can be taken down one good hit.
9. Steam tank, it now has a chance to blow up every time it activates. Random movement? Just what an already unstable list needs. Read the rules and I am sure you'll agree. If you want 5 steam points you'll have a 65% chance of blowing up...awesome, just awesome. I mean really why wouldn't you want the most unreliable unit in the game securing your flank.
10. Demi gryphs. 58 points a model, and only $65 for 3. Seems great to me. Yes they have a lot of good points but really, a good hard hitting unit of these will cost $130.
I know the army plays different now, but too different. Look at how much current Empire players will have to "adjust" thier army to make it work again. All the 8th ed army books made the armies better, but not this one. If anyone can see some good ideas please let me know. I want to play my army but I don't want to lose every game.
All in all the new Empire will be, lots of easy to kill characters, lots of expensive core units and tonnes of Wierd wagons.
I think I am done with Empire.
Skaven is my focus now.
Mike
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Post by danydaigle24 on Apr 8, 2012 7:29:50 GMT -5
I don't know much about fantassy but your analize shows that Empire looks terrible right now... Let's see what the two expert think (Frank and Shannon)
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Post by calitom on Apr 8, 2012 7:41:14 GMT -5
Not to disagree, but from what I've read of fantasy analysis blogs it actually sounds like another good balanced army book for 8th with a lot of variation, and in this trying to move away from having 5-6 fire mages and a gun-line supported by some halberdiers and steam tanks...
Now whether or not this holds! I'd like to see them in action myself, hell- I'd even like to try them out as Empire was described to me many a time as the most difficult army to win with outside of obvious gimmicks (Aforementioned 7th addition DD / gunline hybrids.)
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 8, 2012 8:15:28 GMT -5
I haven't yet read the Empire book... but to weigh in on one issue of the Demigryph $$ cost for an effective unit -> GW did the same thing with Ogres... they made Mournfangs a "must have" unit (the only thing with a decent armor save and could take on large blocks except for deathstar) and charged $45 for TWO models.... so seems to be the way they're going for "big cav" around the $23 per model mark.... makes for a super pricey unit.... they did the same thing with the tomb kings stalkers/knights too - $65 for three....
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Post by empirearmy on Apr 8, 2012 9:22:57 GMT -5
@danydaigle
Experts?You yourself said you don't know much about fantasy so I will tell you this. I have played Empire for over 15 years and this is the worst Edition yet. I don't need experts to tell me that.
@everyone else
I agree with the gun line changes. I agree they are getting away from Fire wizards. That was all dealt with when 8th ed came out.
Read the book and read the 7th ed book and tell me how it is more balanced. Balanced for every other army to beat them. Before Empire had a chance to win, now they have to spend tonnes of points on "wagon" units. keep in mind that at Nexus everyone only plays a straight up battle. But I have written list for 8th ed and cannot find a balanced list that meets the 6 standard scenerios. It very lame. I would have everyone read the book carefully before throwing out comments.
@shannon
the point I was making is that the "super cav" every army is getting may be awesome but it cost a tonne of cash. I know you feel my pain. Really read the rules for Demi chicks they are not as good as your cav. Cost wise in $, you got it the worst with Ogres.
Sorry to all if I seem cranky but I have spent many hours and much cash making my Empire fun and fluffy. Now it sucks.
I will leave you with this;
Welcome to the Empire, where the wind doesn't blow, it sucks.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 8, 2012 9:42:06 GMT -5
forgot to mention.... I'm no expert on the empire (or really on anything else  )... I never really played them (except for a few games when I was frustrated with dogs of war counts as)... so I'd trust Mike's assessment far better than my own... I know it really sucks when GW messes with your army that you spent years painting and collecting... and they definitely aren't infalible... I play tyranids and sisters of battle too... GW is kind of known for getting some books wrong... But I'll reserve judgement til I actually read the thing and see it on the table... I hope that there'll still be some viable builds in there..... |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 8, 2012 9:53:15 GMT -5
hmmm straight comparison between mournfang cav and demigryph knights:
the knights have +1 armor save, +1 weapon skill, lances, +1 leadership and are cheaper
the mournfangs have 2 extra S4 attacks and 1 extra S5 attack
otherwise they're the same
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Post by danydaigle24 on Apr 8, 2012 13:42:38 GMT -5
I'm sorry I didn't know your expertize was just saying that because I know Frank and Shannon win most of the tournament in Fantassy and are really good... To bad if they screw Empire so far GW was doing a great job with new books... Hope you will find a way to make them work...
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Post by stonecutter on Apr 8, 2012 14:17:46 GMT -5
I have now had time to digest the new Empire book - or indigest as Mike would say ;D Overall, I would agree that the army is weaker than it was before. However, I do believe this is in keeping with the new, 8th edition books which seem to be bringing more balance to the armies. While it will definitely require some playtesting and experience, I believe the Empire is still very playable and will do well against other 8th ed book armies but it is likely to struggle vs the power armies that have not been updated (dark elves, demons, lizards, skaven). Mike has covered many of the changes that made the army weaker but here are a few points that I believe help counteract these changes and make the army better:
1. Cavalry - Overall, cheaper and you can now have inner circle knights as core. Even better, the reikknights cost only a couple more points and are naturally stubborn.
2. War machines - yes they are more expensive and the mortar is nerfed but with laser guided artillery, they were absolutely brutal before. The helstrom rocket battery now strikes me as perhaps the best option. It fires 1-3 small templates that are AP x S3. The rules require that it fires indirect even with LOS but that actually makes it more accurate. Since you now get to subtract the BS of the crew from the scatter roll, it will essentially hit on a 2 or 4 and scatters less all the time. Finally, an engineer can be used to help offset misfires and to increase accuracy since they are BS 4.
3. Flagellants - if you think of them as a swarm, their points seem reasonable and they are near where they were in cost in early 7th edition. The WS is now 3 vice 2 and the unit has unlimited size. Also, the immolation can give them T4 along with re-rolling hits and wounds.
4. Warrior Priests - less capable since they don't automatically generate dispel dice but they are a fair bit cheaper and can also generate power dice through channeling. The prayers are much better since they affect the entire unit and since they are bound, you never miscast. They can definitely help make units better defensively with a ward save and/or better offensively since they still have hatred and the prayers can generate to wound re-rolls.
5. Generals & Captains - this is where the biggest improvement has occurred. With the hold-the-line rule, empire troops now become lizardmen on break tests, being able to roll 3 dice and pick the best 2. Even with no magic, all these characters can be given a 1+ save- something very few armies can do.
6. Stank - almost 20% cheaper and they fixed a big problem in that the old, T10 stank was just about impossible for many armies to deal with. Although the potential to blow up early exists, the stank is much better off once it takes a few wounds. Previously, a stank at anything other than 10 wounds was quite nerfed and at 6 and below was essentially immobilized. It can now function even at 1 or 2 wounds by generating only a couple steam points and at least two-thirds of the time will be able to do something such as shoot or move. In addition, the stank now does more impact hits, has a greater average charge range and the flexibility of increasing the steam gun attack up to S6, albeit that consumes all the steam points!! By mixing movement and firing points, the stank could move and then drop a S4 or S5 flame template over a horde!! Perhaps most important, the stank is now a random mover - giving it a 360 degree charge arc that has a good chance of going 18+".
7. Hurricanum & Hysh battle altars - yes, a single cannon ball can take them out but so what, bring two of them. They each cost less than a unit of elven fast cavalry or about the same as a warrior's chariot. You can easily bring two of each in a 2400 point list and have plenty of room to spare. Finally, they are chariots so tossing them into a charge with some knights or infantry can add a bunch of impact hits along with the other benefits.
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Post by empirearmy on Apr 8, 2012 14:34:30 GMT -5
Frank
I would agree with most points but one. the steam tank. It cannot function with 1 or 2 wounds as you say how many steam point you want and roll the arty dice. so at 1 or 2 wounds even if you say 1 steam point and you roll a 2 on the arty dice you blow up. its arty dice now not D6. thats what makes it brutal. so even one turn one with full wounds you have a 65% chance to blow up.
oh and bring 2 of each of those magic wagons? I didn't know you won the lottery.
Flaggies will get wasted too easilyfrom shooting I'm sure you can see that.
Knights however are a good choice now.
2 of each magic wagon...oh Frank..that was a good one...hahaha.
I am gonna try to make this army work.
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Post by stonecutter on Apr 8, 2012 17:37:21 GMT -5
The stank can function with 1 or 2 wounds, just not perfectly. The misfire chart from 1-5 doesn't harm the stank and the 6 is only S2 hits. Since the roll is a d3 plus the steam points, two steam points allows something to at least be attempted. Yes, the stank will lose some function that turn but at least it might be able to grind, shoot or move. Not ideal but like I said before, the stank is completely nerfed right now below 6 wounds so this is much better.
Now, with regard to the cost of the new models and bringing two of each - no argument but its nothing winning 649 or Lottomax wouldn't solve ;D
PS: I forgot the silver lining to the crap infantry being more expensive - you'll be taking fewer of them in a 2400 point list, thus saving you $$ to spend on the altars or demigryphs!!
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Post by empirearmy on Apr 8, 2012 17:57:00 GMT -5
Only a tanker could find the positive in crappy tank and a negative in hoards of infantry.
I must say I agree with the Stank now, I over looked the S2 hits on a 6. My bad.
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Post by stonecutter on Apr 8, 2012 18:14:15 GMT -5
Only a tanker could find the positive in crappy tank and a negative in hoards of infantry. As a tanker, I was always a strong supporter of hordes of infantry - close country, infantry leads,... open country, infantry leads! Now, as for the Leopard 1, the big advantage it had was that you were safe from any spall when you got hit because the armour was so thin that the round would just pass right through ;D |
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Post by empirearmy on Apr 8, 2012 18:18:44 GMT -5
again Frank, you seem almost too positive. It must be because you are retired. I hope to be like that one day. Retired and positive,only ever complaining about my lack of a wood elf army book.
I am trading some stuff with canadianguy. I may bring it down on thursday. talk to him. I may exchange with you for an eaiser exchange as he is in Belleville.
mike
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Post by stonecutter on Apr 9, 2012 6:30:51 GMT -5
again Frank, you seem almost too positive. It must be because you are retired. I hope to be like that one day. Retired and positive,only ever complaining about my lack of a wood elf army book. I am trading some stuff with canadianguy. I may bring it down on thursday. talk to him. I may exchange with you for an eaiser exchange as he is in Belleville. mike Yes, retirement does have a way of cheering one up and I do need a new wood elf book - talk about characters who can't survive ;D WRT Canadianguy, I'll have your $$ for this Thursday at Nexus if you bring the models. |
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)... I never really played them (except for a few games when I was frustrated with dogs of war counts as)... so I'd trust Mike's assessment far better than my own... 
