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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Nov 26, 2012 10:15:53 GMT -5
Np Danny, I'm interested to see how the Hades does on the dragon.
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Post by calitom on Nov 26, 2012 11:14:54 GMT -5
I've tried the hades on them and I personally don't like it, but I hate relying on BS 3 personally.
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Post by danydaigle24 on Nov 26, 2012 11:32:45 GMT -5
pretty sure its not good and you are right Tom but what to use then for anti-air just VS? I already have shit load of flamers to clean troops anyways I dont need the baleflamer...
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Nov 26, 2012 11:35:59 GMT -5
I wouldn't rely on just vector striking for anti-air with only one dragon... odds vs. another dragon for example aren't that great... so I can see having the Hades in this case...
plus you're pretty loaded up for flame templates with the flamers dropping in already....
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Post by danydaigle24 on Nov 26, 2012 12:25:19 GMT -5
Yeah my 1st wave will be Flamer Grinder and second will be screamers PB... Flamers will kill anti-tank/Defense line so I can send my LR where I want...Possesed were just insane in the tournament so I will continue to use them to see...
I still think Tom is right but I dont see how I can have other anti-flyers
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Nov 26, 2012 13:35:51 GMT -5
Well, what I try to keep in mind with fliers is, that even tho you have to snap fire against them, if you have enough shots or TL or other such things, you can still deal with them.
Finding duality in the anti-flier role is hard, many things cannot be effective against both. Perhaps looking to the Dragon for anti-flyer isn't the right choice, Havocs with Flakk Missiles are probably the same price, yet probably far more effective against the likes of a vendetta or storm raven. (Not sure about how fluffy that would be tho)
Ultimately it's your list, but I feel like the dragon is an anti-infantry choice, and using it as anti-vehicle/flier it won't be nearly as effective.
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Post by danydaigle24 on Nov 26, 2012 13:50:46 GMT -5
yeah if its not effective I will use the flyers from FW with TL Lascannon but I really dont want Havoc with flakk missiles because they will die right away from a dragon and they are only S7 so its really bad...
As for you snap fire, it could be a solution but I really dont like to rely on 6s to hit and then you need to pen when you get your lucky 6s... At the end you might end up with half your army shooting at one Dragon just because you need to take it down and the rest will come by intact and kill you but I know your list and I know you like to have millions of S7 shoots so it will probably work for you....
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Nov 26, 2012 14:11:21 GMT -5
Yeah, it's tough really. Anti-flier is a hard base to cover without basically turning a 2k list into an 1850 list.
Honestly, I find Str 7 vs AV12 not that bad, because glances actually mean something now, it's still 33% chance to hurt it. I mean you not going to kill something like a dragon or vendetta easily, but if it was easy to remove fliers, no one would take them!
I'm not sure why your on the internet boat with 'omfgdragonOP', it's powerful and hard to deal with, but you KNOW it's coming, and there are plenty of ways to counter it. Like any new unit the first time you face it, it sucks and you get pwned by it. But then you learn what it does and can deal with it next time.
On another note, since you have daemons as allies, do they have any good FMCs? I know you tried the blood thirster already, but is anything else any good in the anti-flier/vehicle department?
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Nov 26, 2012 14:33:15 GMT -5
blood thirster is terrible at anti-flyer as it has no shooting so speak of so can only vector strike... lord of change however can smack a flyer around pretty good as in addition to the vector strike you can have a 360 degree bolt of change that hits on 2+... flying fateweaver though for pretty much the same points as a loaded up LOC is clearly superior... how annoying is it to kill fateweaver now that he's hit only on 6's by the majority of your army??? yeah... that's annoying... I'm not sold on the dragon for anti-air... but only because I've seen how devestatingly brutal it is versus infantry that's the role I automatically see it as good for... sorry Ray, I'm on the internet bandwagon on this one... play Tom's list with two dragons in it and tell me how it goes
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Post by danydaigle24 on Nov 26, 2012 14:50:04 GMT -5
Yeah there is some but I will have to cut my herald to take shoot for my flamers and its very expensive... it might be a solution if I see the Dragon is horrible and I need anti-flyers...
Honestly I dont need to play a game against double dragon to know its gonna be insane against most army... Let me know how it went when you play those double dragons because I dont see a way to counter them other then killing them when they it the board or having terminator for troops...
EDIT: haha I didnt see Shannon answer when I wrote that I swear
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Post by pmlizardmen on Nov 26, 2012 15:04:41 GMT -5
it seems the new CSM modles have 1 roll and they are very good at that role. the CC feind is very bad VS hordes like orks. but the warptalions cut them down like fluffy cute kittens. so the dragon is also anti infitry
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Post by calitom on Nov 26, 2012 20:47:30 GMT -5
I wouldn't underestimate the Dragon's ability to fill dual roles. My dragons vector struck Shannons flying Tyrant to death while roasting gaunts and then went to vector strike his Tervigons and Carnifexes.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Nov 27, 2012 2:21:51 GMT -5
I've also yet to play one, but I'm kind of shaking in my boots too. I've seen what a Redeemer or Baal with a Flamestorm can do, and I generally have a good chance of stopping those on their way to me....Up until the Dragon came I viewed flyers as an annoyance to be considered, but not that worried about. Now I really feel like I have to devote a good chunk of resources to deal with them, and something static like an Aegis is just not the answer, as they're tough enough to eat a couple of Intercept shots, and can easily clear the line of troops, especially if they both come in at once. For now I'm playing what I have, but I'm pretty sure the Scars are going to need some pretty solid re-imagining unless I'm proven very wrong on the table. Maybe one of those Forge World Whirlwind anti-air batteries.
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Post by danydaigle24 on Nov 27, 2012 8:43:44 GMT -5
I have two little batteries from FW S8 TL AP3 hits of 4 for 35 pts Fast attack choice and you can have 5 of them and upgrade one to a sattelite that will gives you option to split fire so it could be a good choice for you...
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Post by thesanityassassin on Nov 27, 2012 11:10:40 GMT -5
Those Helios batteries? I was actually planning on ordering some of them. I was originally thinking the Whirlwind, but it just seems WAY to pricey and fragile for one shot. Plus, I think the automated guns seem kind of fluffy for Scars....pod them in, use them as cover for a raid, then just destroy them yourself on the way out so the enemy can't take them if you don't have time to recover them.
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