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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 26, 2012 8:48:26 GMT -5
So last year we "borrowed" (ie: stole) the painting breakdown from Astro. Then what happened was myself, Ali and Mike all went around and tried to judge painting...
unfortunately because there were three of us judging, people had someone different scores depending on if one of us judged or multiples of us judged... as well we had some notable disagreements as to what each of us thought was pretty darn cool opposed to just "pretty good"... and with that painting score breakdown (although it is very specific) it is extremely hard to get above the 18-20 range.
So this is one of the things I'm looking at changing this year... hopefully getting a more simplified and streamlined approach (so it doesn't take so damn long!) with more clarity... so you should basically know what to expect for your painting score (roughly) before you even show up!
I'm no expert on painting but I kind of know what to look for (somewhat) and hope to have help (one thing is I won't be playing... for sure this time.... I'll do a 'buy' system first... it's just too hard)... I'll still probably have to ask you about your conversions etc. and things you'd like to have looked at that you're super proud of so that I don't miss anything (try as I might, I don't have every GW model yet... so I may not know if something is a conversion or not!)
So really long story short... my questions are:
What makes a good painting score?
What should be on the list to be considered?
thoughts?
;D
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Post by connor on Oct 26, 2012 14:02:58 GMT -5
I like painting scores, bigger numbers increase accuracy and I don't see any other way of marking painting other than to judge. Also I think everything should be considered, there should be a base score for a fully painted army and then you add points for specific things you think made it better.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 26, 2012 14:22:28 GMT -5
....base score for a fully painted army is you get to play... lol... there will be a fully painted rule this year... I said that last championship... anyone who cannot paint three basic colours on their army in a YEAR is simply not making an effort to paint.... so if you were at the last tourney, you've had LOTS of notice... for those that were not there last year, you now have over three months to get three colours on your army..  |
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Post by danydaigle24 on Oct 26, 2012 14:51:51 GMT -5
Last year judgement was severe but fair I think. It was hard to get 30 pts you need to be an amazing painter. Maybe you can judge everything in two days is that possible for you Shannon? Also to save time you can judge army in advance like couple days before I can bring my army for example and you judge it..
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Post by thesanityassassin on Oct 26, 2012 15:22:01 GMT -5
I really think having a single judge is key, or at least have each judge look at the models together. As you said, different people have different opinions and familiarity levels with things.
I'll be frank enough to say that I wasn't particularly happy with the painting scores last year, as I saw stuff with massively different levels of painting scoring the exact same amounts, and I've judged enough painting to have a fair idea the amount of effort/time that has gone into things...and this isn't simply considering my own stuff.
Conversions are another issue, and something I felt DID affect me adversely last time, as I received a "a couple minor conversions", when I had several units that were heavily converted, and each of my squads had at least one notable conversion in it. If the judge, whoever it was, wasn't completely familar with the model lines however, some of them wouldn't be noticed, and that bummed me out. I think that having the painting judging happen when the player is there to talk about the army would be a big deal, so they can point out particular things they did/techniques they used.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 26, 2012 21:05:30 GMT -5
to be frank, I wasn't happy with your painting score either Matt.....
and yes, many conversions are not necessarily noticed unless someone is there pointing it out... unfortunately one of the big things that happened last year was drop outs, which forced me to play a ringer army... this meant I didn't have near the amount of time necessary to attend to everything myself.... it also meant trying to run from table to table answering questions, judging painting and help doing match ups.... there just wasn't time for everything!
I have a few ideas to make that part NOT happen this year, so the one issue TIME to do a proper job of it, will be available....
there is enough time to do it over the two days (and I don't want to score people ahead of time... needs to all be done at the tourney)
one of the big changes this year is that if a model doesn't at least have three colours on it, it cannot be played... so there will be a baseline that will be more fair (everyone at least has to be painted to score anything!)
To get a perfect score in painting, I'm sorry but the stuff has to be out of this world amazing... I've seen stuff like that (there were many at Astro far beyond my abilities, yet I think only two or three people got top marks for painting out of sixty!) and I know that there are a few painters that can do that kind of work (James Craig... Scott...) and this high level of painting is what the top marks are reserved for...
I'll give an example... at Astro I scored 22 and 21 the two years I went... with my absolute best painted stuff I could muster.... this year I brought what I thought to be a better painted army (daemons) than last year (sisters), but I got a point less.... painting is very subjective, and it's not an exact science... I made sure i asked the person who gave me the score what I could do to improve what he saw.... which helped me see what he was seeing in the brief five minutes he looked at my army....
one of the guys who scored 30 painted an ork horde... to an extremely high standard... every single boy....
The problem with being there talking about it while it's being judged however, is that the person judging (me) wants to be a nice guy, and really wants to give you every little bit of credit I can for all your hard work... I can't really say I can be completely unbiased and critical when someone is right there telling me about their stuff (especially if I'm noticing mistakes!).
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Post by harryfang on Oct 26, 2012 21:07:10 GMT -5
3 colours in total or per model?
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 26, 2012 21:10:56 GMT -5
Things that would have put people's scores over the top into the mid 20's and up by last year's scale: - freehand work, banners and on models - elaborate and themed display boards - blending - object source lighting - having all models to the SAME standard, rather than one squad being better than the rest (example at a recent fantasy tourney Scott attended... they took a back rank trooper from each person's army to decide who won...) - use of non-standard or difficult colours - basing that's above the standard - use of effects beyond shading, washing and highlighting if all of those were demonstrated and you didn't get such a score, feel free to give yourself 5 extra points on whatever you got last year |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 26, 2012 21:13:37 GMT -5
3 colours in total or per model? every model in your army must have at LEAST three colours on it to count as painted.... for example: if a termagant has black skin, orange carapace and red eyes it would be considered fully painted... even if you didn't do the teeth, gun accents, drybrushing on the skin or any highlighting on the carapace... if a space marine is all black with a boltgun metal boltgun and a white helmet, he's fully painted. If the same marine is sprayed black and his gun metal, he's not fully painted. |
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Post by Hizack on Oct 26, 2012 21:55:45 GMT -5
I remember pictures of a few of the armies from Astro (saw someone else who went's photos)
The Pre Heresy coloured Death Guard with rust on everything.. That Eldar with the free handed 80's style Eldar babes and stars all over it and other things. Those two would be close to the 30.. They were incredible.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 26, 2012 22:40:52 GMT -5
The eldar guy got a 29.... I'm serious... with all that free hand work.... still didn't get perfect...
...he had a fingerprint mark on one of the glass cockpits.....
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Post by connor on Oct 27, 2012 8:26:23 GMT -5
how would you feel about proxy models?, do I have to go out and get two battlewagons or can I use the one I've made? Can I use the hellboss? what if something breaks on the way to the tourny, like my bikers, would that affect the score?
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 27, 2012 8:35:46 GMT -5
Let's start with the easy question: bring glue... it fixes broken things... if you have broken models, and haven't fixed them... yes it would affect your presentation score.... Proxy? well if it is around the correct size (ie: your battlewagons) and not modelled for advantage - ie: rhino sized so you can easily hide them... and they're painted... scratch builds kind of fall under "conversions" to me... so long as they're decently done they shouldn't affect your score... your warboss / hellboss conversion is cool... it's a conversion... him being on a bigger base actually hurts you for the most part, so I don't see a problem there... you just wouldn't be able to say "actually he's only this size so I could make that charge" or anything like that... he'd be what he is it should go without saying though you proxy at your own risk... if it's a cardboard cutout or a toilet paper roll on top of a kleenex box for your vindicator... expect it to be off the table! conversions are A-OK! |
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Edg3ofR3ason
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Post by Edg3ofR3ason on Oct 27, 2012 18:12:02 GMT -5
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Oct 28, 2012 9:46:30 GMT -5
hmmmm... I'm liking this even more than the astro one Kerry.... it seems fairly easy to get a mid-range score (even with just three colours and a wash) but the last 10 points are very difficult to achieve.... similar in some ways to Astro (as scores above 20 on their scale are very hard to get) but maybe with the extra 10 points on the scale (40 total vs. 30 on the Astro scale) there will still be a decently wide spread for points...
seems like unless you use 'advanced techniques' you don't get above 25-30 on this scale (25 cap unless everything is at least shaded and highlighted)
also the conversion scale is fairly easy to judge, as it clearly explains that to get max score you have to be basically sculpting your own models from scratch or your entire army is heavily converted (so if you can't notice the conversions, they're obviously not to this level - head swaps and kit bashes score fairly low on the scale - which only contributes 5 points)
combination of brushwork and technique on this scale however... which some may like and some may not like....
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