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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 16, 2013 9:43:25 GMT -5
So, I decided to start a thread where we could piece together some of the tactics that are working, as the new Eldar book is really quite deep in terms of unit selection.
One of things I think is so key is that rather than like other codices where units individually can be pieced together to form a cohesive list, I feel like with this codex we are going to see alot of Unit X paired with Unit Y and Unit Z, because the unit combinations are what allow Eldar to really let their synergy flow. So I feel like we will start to find some units that pair really well with other units, and keeping track is going to be quite important, as we're really navigating a webway of possibilities. (See what I did thar...)
So far, I've found a few Synergies, the one I'm most fond of atm is the Synergy between the Avatar, the Wraithlord, and a unit of Striking Scorpions.
Basically, in the previous codex, one of the footdar tactics was to cast fortune on the Avatar, have him stand in front of the Wraithlord to provide cover for him, while Fortune made the Avatar durable enough to shake off anything coming his way.
I've tweaked this around a bit with new book, by switching their positions. The Wraithlord blocks LOS to the Avatar, helping prevent him from being shot off the table early. and natural T8 is quite strong defense, as most anti tank weapons wound you on 5s these days. By standing in cover and/or if you take advantage of T1 Night Fighting, you can be very durable and shake off those early hits.
Now, the big downside to the Avatar and Wraithlord Combo is that they are prone to jamming. That is huge hordes of fearless stuff that they will just sit in combat with forever. This is where the Scorps come in, with their amazing horde-clearing capability. They can un-jam your big MCs allowing them to keep applying their firepower and throwing their weight around (Let's face it, MCs are no slouch in combat)
I have a feeling this is only the first of several unit combinations waiting to be found, and it should be interesting to see what matches up where. I get the feeling there is a ton of synergy in this book, and unlocking it is going to be fun.
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jun 16, 2013 14:47:08 GMT -5
I was trying to find a way to clear horde via shooting other then D-Scythe and to negate cover and I tough about storm guardian with 2 flamers in a weave serpent. Cheap troops that will clear aegis fast pretty sure im gonna field one instead of D-Scythe
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jun 16, 2013 19:00:10 GMT -5
I'm not sold on that idea honestly. Sure Storm Guardians are really cheap, but they have a very narrow band of things that they're functional against, and even slightly below average rolls on the flamers really hangs them out to die....I mean, with some Warlock support or Doom they start being a bit better, but that's a)relying on getting a particular power and b) adding in a psyker that brings the unit cost up again. I used to love the unit when I could take 5 and a destructor Warlock for cheap, but I'm unsure on the utility of them....they'll do alright against Gaunts and Guardsmen, but anything T4 or with a 4+ or better save will likely survive in enough numbers to kill the Guardians in return and still hold the Aegis. MEQ's will largely laugh at a pair of flamers for the most part, not to mention how close you'll have to get with your transport to get good coverage with the templates.
With all that said, if you decide you want to try it still I have a bunch of the pistols and swords from the storm guardians...I bought some to use the heads on my Jetbikers a few years ago.
In response to Ray I'm trying to debate on the utility of Dual Bright Lance Wraithlords versus Fire Prisms for my Heavy slots.....15 more points for a lord with dual lances and a sword over a Holfield/Spirit Stones Prism...a bit less utility at range, but arguably more survivable in most situations and with added Close Combat punch and crowd clearing with the dual flamers....
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 16, 2013 19:26:34 GMT -5
Not sure why you would take Stones on a Prism, Stones are basically worthless now unless your a transport (and your transports shouldn't be getting penned). Swap it out for the Belly Cannon.
What I've found running 1 Prism and 1 Lord is that the Prism is great a murdering MEQs, but little else. While the Lord is great are murdering pretty much everything except MEQs.
One thing I've found is if your not shooting the large template with the prism, is that you won't do very much damage. The lance and small blast are nice to have as utility, but the Wraithlord is just a huge pain for your opponent if you throw him forward.
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jun 16, 2013 19:32:33 GMT -5
Matt you keep saying you are afraid of Tau, Stormguardien with two flamers will be great to mess them and if my opponent waste is firepower killing them instead of my wraithguard/lord/knight coming well Im happy... also combine with swooping hawks you start to mess an aegis pretty bad will the nasty stuff is coming running...
I would definitly like the pistol and sword and flamers if you want to sell it to me just send me a PM...
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jun 16, 2013 22:53:24 GMT -5
I might be missing something regarding Stones on a Prism.....why is this such a bad idea? If it gets penned and shaken it can no longer shoot anything other than the Lance, and have that hitting on 6....that's a huge amount of firepower to lose that could be negated on a 2+ for just a point more than a Guardian....Or are we just kind of assuming that if it gets Penned it's going to have the damage result fall somewhere between 3-6 due to common Anti-Tank weapons being AP1 or AP2/Fire Prism should have a reasonable chance to just stay out of range of this stuff? If my defense is going to be staying 60" away from a lot of things then the belly cannon starts to become a questionably choice in my eyes as very rarely am I going to want my Prism in range to use it. It's gold on a Wave Serpent though...
As for the Storm Guardians, I totally see what you're saying, but I'm just not sure there is going to be consistent enough use for them to justify their use in a list...For example if I really want a flame template I can take a minimum Dragon squad with Exarch and Heavy Flamer for just a couple more points....against something like Fire Warriors the Heavy Flamer actually averages more wounds through than 2 regular flamers in most situations, they're arguably more survivable with the 3+ even with half as many, and you have the utility of 4 Meltas to dump into something when you run out of soft targets.
All that said, I'm painfully aware of how infrequently I've played this game recently, so you guys are certainly more aware of what is commonly seen these days.
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Post by calitom on Jun 17, 2013 0:15:09 GMT -5
Defense lines are fucking bad, and any Tau player especially using them is giving you an easy win.
Storm guardians are terrible, don't take them EVER. You have WAVE SERPENTS that IGNORE COVER. Why you would ever take anything but a RENDING shuriken weapon on any of your infantry is beyond me. I wouldn't shoot at the unit of storm guardians as soon as their serpent was dead because it's a waste of points and seriously a terrible unit choice. But by all means, please use it to try to prove me wrong- we saw how that went with your Tyranids.
Edit : Maybe that came off a little too harsh. I hate people giving bad tactics to players just getting used to their new codex though. Avoid dropping your shuriken catapults for pistols and flamers at all costs, though. Bad idea is bad.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jun 17, 2013 0:39:40 GMT -5
That was kind of my thought, but again, pretty out of the loop.
Out of curiosity, why are Defense Lines bad? I don't really trust the Autocannons to take down any flyer tougher than a Storm Talon, but deployable cover seems like a reasonable idea to me of my limited experience with Aegis lines.
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Post by calitom on Jun 17, 2013 2:05:31 GMT -5
Because it gives you this feeling of need to deploy as many things as possible behind it, which is bad against any army with templates or some kind of assault unit that can just munch through your whole line in two turns. I just think too many people take it for more then it was originally intended for and try to abuse it. Thankfully Tau and Eldar are here to crush those strategies wholeheartedly.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 17, 2013 5:46:00 GMT -5
Anytime I see someone with an aegis I know exactly how to beat their army at least 90% of the time. As Tom says, people bringing an aegis feel the need to put WAY too much behind it. This reduces your mobility to zero for everything behind that line and forces you to piecemeal strategy or full out castling (which is incredibly bad).
A helldrake for example completely ignores the aegis (and quad guns aren't exactly stellar at killing the drake with interceptor) will fly up on an angle and flame everything... turn and fire out the butt the next turn doing it again... then angle back the triangle doing it again if you let it.
Tau want you to bunch up in one spot and hide way back across the board. Then you get marker lit up and whatever is behind the aegis dies, or is gutted sufficiently so that it doesn't much matter.
Objective games? Well I know exactly where you're putting your objectives right? So I know how you're going to deploy your objective holding units, and I know where to deploy my objective clearing units.
When used correctly (one unit manning a quad gun for example if you have no anti-air) then it's fine to use, but castling is bad because all you have to run across is someone who denies cover (lots of that now) or is assault based (my wraiths LOVE it when people castle... I can get there in two turns and everything behind the aegis dies... ditto my khorne daemons...)
the defense line is NOT a guide to deploy your army. Using it this way is giving away all your deployment and movement strategies away (and mobility is what wins games) makes target priority easy, piecemeals your advance (I only need to fight what parts of your army I want to at any given time) and actually turns an army NOT intended as a gunline to become a gunline...
static guard? sure, having some heavy weaponry hidden by an aegis, bubble wrapped by guardsmen with a character manning a quadgun = something scary. Making your mobile army static? making your assault army hang back? = making your opponent's job easy.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 17, 2013 6:40:49 GMT -5
Ok, so I see what your saying Matt about stones on a prism. The assumption these days is that if your vehicle is taking pens, there's a reasonably high chance it's going to be boxed out via HP anyways, as volume of fire anti-tank or glancing to death via haywire/guass/whatever is far more likely.
The main reason I take the chin cannon on the Prism is extra shots via a Deepstriking unit. If a unit is deepstriking, there's a very high chance it's going to land somewhere within 24" of the prism. Being able to throw out a couple more wounds in addition to a template makes things that much more manageable. I'm still using the same tactics with my Prism as we used to use in 5th with Naked Prisms, the fact that I get a 4+ cover save just for moving now feels like it will be strong enough to shake off any damage that's not going to murder the tank outright. Backfield AV12 is still very tough to kill.
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jun 17, 2013 7:02:43 GMT -5
I just dont understand why you guys are saying Aegis are bad. If you look at all strong build right now EVERYONE is using Aegis. You dont have to put all your army behind just better protection for your backfield troops. Thats part of being a good player if you bunch ALL your army behind an aegis or not.
I read in other Eldar forum tactic that had game with Eldar so far that stormguardian with flamers are doing a good job for cheap point cost and are troops so scoring (main advantage on taking them). Not saying its the best troops in the world and will wreck your face just saying its a really cheap troop choice immune to helldrake inside their transport that will do a specific job that I found eldar lack of (clearing cover save).
Tom said take your shield if you want to ignore cover well first its not accurate if you roll a 1 wow you have 2 shoots S7 good for you and next turn your weave serpent is dead... Ask Ray what happen in our game when he took his shield off I blew up his weave serpent and got 1st blood with my 1 shooting unit so imagine any other army
For me its not a bad tactic using stormguardian and Im starting playing this army so Im reading stuff a lot about it...
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 17, 2013 9:36:50 GMT -5
....actually I said that aegis' used PROPERLY are not bad, to provide anti-flyer for those who do not have the option...
what makes "insert aegis" a bad tactic is that it's not appropriate for the majority of armies, and leads to static elements and hiding half your army behind it...
You might say that's not what people do if they know what they're doing, but I saw you do that very thing on Saturday vs. me and what happened? The VAST majority of players that I see using an aegis do exactly that, they bunch WAY too much behind it...
When going out of town as well at tournies see the same damn thing aegis encourages hiding behind it - which makes a portion of your army static - if you're a heavy weapons squad that cannot move who cares? if you are ANYTHING else this limits you... if you put too much behind it - it limits you... Now since we're talking about Eldar tactics here, Eldar have mobility in spades probably one of the most mobile armies out there... and fantastic anti-air - that crimson hunter is a great flyer hunter!... there is no need for an aegis for them... Tau have all the anti-air one could possibly want - no need for an aegis there at all either...
if you want a 4+ cover save hang out in a ruin...
As for everyone using an aegis, I'm not really sure where you're getting that.. most lists I'm seeing online do not use one actually... I've seen bastions more on the sites I frequent... but this is neither here nor there, the opinion was asked why aegis can be viewed as bad... gave reasons why it in my opinion is for any army with any anti-air... your milege may vary...
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jun 17, 2013 11:39:08 GMT -5
I agree with you Shannon hiding half your army behind an aegis is very bad EXCEPT for Nurgle. Its a 2up cover for my whole army. Yes I lost against you but was not because of my Aegis at all. You just played better then me I did a huge mistake not keeping my DP to support thinking I was fine with my GUO but you just 1 shoot him I had nothing good that game for him and it happens with Deamon...Im talking about either IH Endurance re-roll invul save 4+FNP or 3+ armor not one of them... As for Eldar you are right most build dont need aegis. I like having one because I feel like its adding you a gun for backfield troops like guardian and a possibility to go to ground and having 2+ but its not necessary. You went out of town Shannon and you guys were killing us here and didnt kill everyone outthere and finish mid pack...Same for me I went out of town and got smoked twice in a 6 games tournament. I just think we are playing more friendly here and I enjoy it and like it better like that but we are far from running most competitive list. I see lots of people using bastion but I guess french are different because I see lots of aegis too...
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jun 18, 2013 9:56:12 GMT -5
trying to figure out how to deal with riptide quick so I dont get my wraithguard blow up quick... Any suggestion...
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