csm dataslate leak

[voodoo]

Side note…. Conversion beamers have been 180’d. Last edition they were amazing against infantry, now though, they’re going to be kingmakers against heavy armor…

Max would be 72” // S12 // AP-3 // D 4d3

Average would be 72” // S8 // AP-3 // D 2d3

Land raiders better hope Rapiers can’t take these anymore, or that they’re crazy amounts of points because see ya later tanks/heavy targets. Plasma destroyer is still a solid choice and seems fair seeing as it has no overcharged profile. Hopefully points wise they’re not pants on head crazy low.

[thesanityassassin]

I'm not so sure they aren't still pretty solid against infantry - if a model in a unit is killed by it, the unit takes an additional 2d6 S6 hits. If you get through the first model, you're averaging doing 5 more wounds to a T3 unit. Not killing a squad of Terminators by any means, but still reasonable support.

Secret stash I found says 3 quarters and that copper thing we got rid of will get you the gun, the C-Beamer and 2 Crew.

[Jack Shrapnel]

ummm they're forge world? they'll automatically be a better choice than all other options, let's be honest here

[voodoo]

Thanks Forgeworld, I used to enjoy having Rapiers in my army; you’ve just taken that from me and not because they’re bad… please see below.

Rapiers got 1 point more expensive per the below equation. Not oddly enough they still hit on 3’s but the gun itself is mildly sentient, meaning that when there are no crew left in the UNIT (yeah. You can’t just kill 2 marines to silence a gun anymore…) the guns themselves go nuts and begin moving at the nearest enemy unit, shooting and charging if possible until killed. The rapiers themselves also gain back a wound on a 5+ for each model they killed in the turn excluding overwatch and melee.

Rapier + 2 crew + C-Beamer = 100=24 points. This is a single shot on a unit to begin with at an average strength of 8, AP-3 and Damage of 2D3. If it kills someone though, that unit gets hit by an additional 2D6 S6 Ap0 D1 attacks that do not further generate more hits. If you roll unlucky and lose 3 models to this you will be facing down 6D6 S6 AP0 D1 hits on that same unit…

It’s not ultra-mega broken, but… it’s trying pretty darn hard.

[Khalai]

Remember, those wounds that it gets back are only in the fight phase (since everything fights now). So it might as well not have that rule considering how likely it will kill something in the fight phase then roll a 5+ after that. That said, it's one of the few units that stands out as really good now.

[voodoo]

Thank you Justin, I missed the "fight" phase caveat. That's MUCH better than I had initially thought but they're still one of those "auto-include" units.

[Jack Shrapnel]

sigh

[voodoo]

While on the subject of balance; how is it rapiers are largely unaffected by a cost increase but the Fire Raptor got cranked up by 164 points?

Yes, the Raptor was undercosted before; I'm not going to even attempt to argue that. It feels like they're trying to discourage people from running tanks. 105 points for a drop pod? 374+ for a fire Raptor?

Seems a little nutty compared to some of the previous "winner" units that just happen to be infantry based.

[Jack Shrapnel]

The vehicles increased in cost due to their greatly increased survivability.... made no sense keeping a land raider at 250 points if a lone melta gun could drop in and kill it.... however when you're giving all vehicles essentially alot of the superheavy rules from 7th (no vehicle damage chart) and high wounds and armor saves... suddenly they're just way TOO good for that 250 points (for the raider example) so need to go up quite a bit...

now a drop pod, which is essentially a one shot delivery system then essentially a stormbolter for the game, which lost obsec (the only thing that made them good before) and the things they're delivering aren't as potent as before vs. single targets like vehicles... I don't get it. They just don't impact the game enough to warrant such a point increase and it seems more of a reaction to battlecompany than anything else (as cents can't even board one now, along with termies and other close combat elite units).

I'd say play some games though to see... as the things we "knew" from 7th just simply don't apply anymore from a balance perspective.. the game is just too radically different now (on Saturday for example, necron warriors were grinding down the swarmlord in combat and he had to be saved by old one eye and a carnifex. yes... this happened.)

[Khalai]

I agree that the major reason for the points discrepancy is tanks are just way more expensive in general.

But the other side is that artillery is a lot squshier. T7 W3 was a LOT harder to chew through than T5 W4 is now. For comparison a single disintegrator now destroys it on average. While before 3 disintegrators probably weren't. I think you'll find its a lot more difficult to protect them and considering the consequences of losing crew I think that the cost is actually reasonable

[Jack Shrapnel]

good points!