Magic - the Root of all Evil???

[Jack Shrapnel]

Liked this article, so figured I should insert it here... hope the original poster is cool with that... his blog is here: kavzar.blogspot.com/2010/12/magic-root-of-all-evil.html

(and his site is called: "Skavenblight - you suck and this is why" which is reason enough to visit all on its' own)


Monday, 6 December 2010Magic - The Root of All Evil?

Just a brief note on magic, before (hopefully later this week) I start on my magic er... articles. Not at all a huge rant. >_>

Basically today I'm looking at what I feel is the biggest problem in WHFB, magic. Particularly the big hitters. We'll also look at how to protect oneself from them.



Why is it the biggest problem? Because it's so damn alpha-strikey. If you can imagine two balanced armies ( and not that competitive, lets say Empire and High Elves). They each have a level 4 with the lore of life. They each have Dwellers, and the Empire player has a Power Scroll, while the High Elf is packing the Book of Hoeth (rather than bringing Teclis). Now, as far as the magic game goes, here's how this breaks down.

Option One:
High Elves go first (more likely, Skeinsliver and less units generally). The Archmage moves within 24" of the Empire level 4 and uses 6 dice on Dwellers Below. The Empire Wizard Lord fails his strength test, and the high elf player has magical dominance for the whole game.

Option two:
High Elves go first again, and move up and cast Dwellers. The Empire General passes his strength test. Then, in the Empire players turn, he uses his Power Scroll to cast Dwellers on the Archmage, who fails his strength test, and then the Empire player has magical superiority all game.

Option three:
Empire go first, and move up and Dwellers the Archmage. He fails his strength test, and the Empire have magical dominance for the entire game.

Option four:
Empire go first, move up, Dwellers, the Archmage passes. The Archmage then uses Dwellers on the Wizard Lord, who fails. Advantage, High Elves.

Option five:
Both Wizards pass their strength tests. Deuce. This isn't likely (you're more likely to have one fail), but if this happens the assassinations continue from the HE player (book of hoeth) but the Empire's ability to do so is diminished because they're using a Power Scroll.


So, you guys must surely see the problem here? This applies in a lot of games in WHFB. Prophetess trying to Dwellers a Spellweaver but the Spellweaver also trying to Dwellers her. A Dark Elf using Pit of Shades/Purple Sun on a Slann while the Slann tries to get it Dwellers'd. Teclis using Dwellers on a Grey Seer while the seer tries to 13th him. It's madness. In my opinion, you should get Look Out Sir! from these spells. Or a Ward Save, or something. It's absolutely ridiculous that they are so Alpha Strikey. I was watching a game between WoC and Daemons of Chaos (using MoS for Beasts) the other day, and it was great. No stupid alpha strikey assassination spells. The Daemons guy had the whole lore of Beasts, and the Chaos guy had the lore of fire.

However, as crappy as it may be, it's the way the game is now. So, let's have a look at these deadly as hell spells and see what we can do to protect ourselves from them.

The spells are:
The Dwellers Below
Purple Sun of Xereus
Pit of Shades
Curse of the Horned Rat
The Final Transmutation (sort of, it's probably the worst, but most reliable)

Ok, so, lets go through these in order.

THE DWELLERS BELOW
Everyone knows this one. Strength test or die, 24" range. So, ways to protect yourself. Some armies have natural protection from this (Vampires, Daemons of Chaos' Greater Daemons) while some are pretty weak to it (Teclis, Slann, any elf wizard except Malekith, any human wizard). So, ways to buff yourself up. Well, one of them is getting a mount! Some mounts (for example, the screaming bell, or a daemonic steed, or a cold one, yes a cold one) have higher strength, which will better protect you from this spell, if it's a particularly bad weakness. Personally this is the reason I've started taking the bell. If your opponent has this, try and set up pretty far from him if he's going first (with your wizard, not your whole army, also warmachines, as this instakills them).

PURPLE SUN OF XEREUS
Overrated imo. It's not all that great, because you can't rely on it the same way you can rely on the other spells. Unless your target is literally RIGHT in front of you. It's an init test, and most wizards have I3, but quite a few of the "top tier" armies have higher, with Skaven, Elves, Warriors and (some) daemons having pretty good initiative. However, this spell does run roughshod all over armies (even I4 can expect substantial casualties). It's a particularly good spell to give to Teclis if you're running the "sit in the 2nd rank phoenix guard" (the guys in front are immune cause of the banner of the world dragon). So, how to protect yourself from this.... If you're not blessed with high initiative, you're kinda screwed. Very few armies get mounts that increase initiative (Empire get Pegasi!). However, what you can do is position yourself so that your enemy has his own men between himself and you. And stay far away. It's unlikely to go over 18".

PIT OF SHADES
Are you a Treeman, Slann, Fateweaver or a Dwarf? Well, this is your maker. It's ridiculously accurate, and will kill most of the above at least 2/3rds of the time (bit less for the important Dwarfs). Not much you can do about this bad boy. At all. It's possibly the best "assassination" spell (easier to cast than Dwellers), but it's also very very specific. Only good vs low initiative.

CURSE OF THE HORNED RAT
Honestly, this one is probably the easiest one to avoid. Plop yourself in a unit of 20 models, you're done. Or, sit in anything but an infantry unit (for example, cavalry, buy a horse!). Be wary of this spell turn two though, as Skaven Shooting can wear you down turn one for a 13th turn two. I'd always keep my wizard in the biggest unit available to me, or on a horse. Really easy to avoid.

THE FINAL TRANSMUTATION
Hardest one to avoid fully, also the least specific. This one doesn't care who you are, everyone dies the same to it. Problem is, the rate they die at you'd be as well bringing something like Pit of Shades/Purple Sun. Chances are they die the same to that, and some people are more susceptible to it. Also, half the spells in metal are pretty poor. >:


Well, hope that helps folks. Now to end with a problem.

Say you have a Slann. You want to take the potion of strength to make you less vulnerable to Dwellers. Ok, great. If this works, so would taking a Sword of Might, no? Or a Halberd.

What do you think of that? O.o

Hope you guys enjoyed the article

[thesanityassassin]

This whole "Alpha Strike" philosophy is way to prevalent in GW games these days, and is really one of the big reasons I'm down on them. 40k is much the same way, with a lot of the newer army books focusing on being able to total an army on your first go.

It really bugs me that "hide in a bunker and cast" seems to be one of if not THE premier way to win games in 8th. I still have fun with the game assuming that it's not getting too competitive and that the players are a bit self limiting, but I really have no urge to play Fantasy to any competitive level thanks to a lot of the thoughts presented in this article.

[Jack Shrapnel]

well there are a couple hints at protection from a few of the big ones... never really thought how "buy a horse" really is a cheap and easy tactic....

Now if I can just convince that pegasi to let my tyrant ride him!

[stonecutter]

Here are a few additional methods I have found that help against some of these killer spells:

1. Convince the tourney organizer/local group to ban them ;D

2. Move your characters out of the unit so that either the unit or the character is targeted. This is most effective vs dwellers or similar tests that cause every model in the unit to test. Main drawback is against shooty armies like skaven/empire, your characters get roasted but vs HE, WoC and even lizzies, it works well.

3. Some armies (Empire and WoC) have magic items that allow their characters to autopass any characteristic test. If your army has this, give it to your key wizard.

4. Get into combat, against anything!! This is absolutely the best way to avoid the killer spells since they are all direct damage (DD) and thus cannot be cast INTO combat (a wizard that is fighting can cast them OUT at another, unengaged unit). It usually involves going into combat in less than ideal conditions but it is far better than getting shredded by a killer spell 2-3 times while making a more "tactical" advance.

5. Remember the forward arcs of the enemy casters. People often forget that the DD spells must be cast within the forward arc of the caster and even characters on foot have a 90 degree arc (except for a grey seer on a bell, who has 360 and is broken anyhoo!!). By splitting up the characters and your main threat units onto opposite flanks, you can force your opponent to turn to face one or the other. Another threat unit going down the middle also helps since your opponent will have to expose their own flank in order to get at the flanking characters. Once they have turned, engage the unit immediately to freeze it in place. Advance whatever is left in your army (preferably out of the arc of the threat caster) and get them into the fight.

6. Save dispel scrolls, feedback scrolls, dispel dice and hex scrolls for when absolutely necessary to protect vital units. If someone dwellers or dreaded 13th's a unit of shooters, let them do it - if there is nothing critical, let them take one for the team!! Also, use excessive dice to dispel when you make the attempt. i.e. dwellers is cast without IF on a total of 23 and you have 7 dispel dice with a 4th level caster. On average, 6 dice +4 will yield 25 so you might be tempted to save one but throw everything at the dwellers since:

a. one die will do nothing important for you
b. throwing 7 will fail only ~10% of the time whereas using 6 will fail ~30% of the time - for the sake of one DD, you cut the chance of failure by 67%!!

7. Assassination - my personal favourite. Toss a killy character/unit with very fast movement against the wizard and add a unit of fast cav/scouts with a champ to prevent your hero from being challenged. If the wizard challenges, the hero accepts and slaughters them while the champ accepts if anyone but the wizard issues a challenge. With a unit, even garbage can kill a T3 wizard so each and every wound counts!! Sacrificing 200-300 points worth of anything is definitely worth it to kill a 300+ point wizard since you will give yourself magic dominance or deny your opponent magic supremacy.

[shaner]

To comment on Frank's post...final thought on Magic Dominance.

Again, it is ALL about having magic dominance...not on tactics. This is the reason why WFB hold no place in my heart anymore. It is also the reason why we are looking at some house rules to make the game tactical again.

1. use 7th ed terrain rules (with some tweaks)
2. severly limit, or even remove, magic. I am more for limiting magic. For example...only use lv 2 casters...OR allowing any level caster (with a capped # magic levels) and restricting them to only being able to throw a number of dice equal to their casting level (MAX 4)

Any thoughts dudes??

Shaner

[stonecutter]

I like both ideas of modifying the terrain rules to v 7.5ish and limiting the impact of magic on the game. Even a 2nd level can have a huge impact depending on the spell and even the "minor" hexes or augments are quite significant (yes, T8 infantry for a spell that goes off on 8+ is quite significant). On the other side, at least the augments/hexes require you to have other troops doing something in order to work (i.e. shooting or fighting) so I am not as repelled by them as I am the game ending spells that can hit you from 24" away on turn 1.

[donimator]

Hi, I'm quite new to Fantasy and really only know the Eighth ed. rules. I've followed a lot of discussions here and elsewhere about magic in 8th and suggested fixes for it. In other games I've seen ban lists and restrictions put on things to rein them in, but always felt it was an inelegant solution. I like fixes that tweak the mechanics a bit instead of outright banning.

For magic, what effect would simply increasing all casting values by 6 (for example) have? On average, people would be using two extra dice per casting roll or risking a failure. More dice rolled = more miscasts (more risk). Also more dice required to cast means less spells cast per phase. It's not changing magic rules, just tempering it a bit. I'm coming at it from a very simplistic point of view, but might it be worth a test game or two?

[stonecutter]

After giving it some more thought, I figure there are two primary complaints with the way the game has changed from 7th to 8th:

1. Magic - too powerful and too much impact to the point where you cannot play a no wizard list and if your own 4th level dies, you are essentially pooched.

2. LOS & Terrain - Terrain essentially doesn't exist and "true" LOS makes forests, hills, intervening units, etc. a joke since anything on the table can be seen.

We have already experimented with no 15+ spells and no #6 spells but I think there is a simple solution to both issues as follows:

1. Caster level is NOT added to casting/dispel attempts - this limits the magic phase more, makes casting the killer spells far more difficult and means that an army without a wizard is feasible.

2. Terrain blocks LOS unless you are in it. This makes terrain tactical but retains the good part of 8th that allows units to move through terrain rather than getting bogged down for an entire game.

Give it some thought and we can discuss more on Thursday.

[shaner]

I am totally in agreement with Frank. I really like his suggestions, and I hope to try this tweak in my next game.

The only addition I would make here, is that a Mage's magic phase does NOT end if he fails to cast a spell. Yes, I know, this allows Vamps to cast IoN like they used to...big deal, their magic is not nearly as devastating as the MRB spells anyways. This ALSO would take the pressure off of spellcasting...ie: people wouldn't be as inclined to throw a mittful of dice to ensure a spell's success.

Shaner

[Jack Shrapnel]

Some good ideas there Frank... but how would not adding caster level deter those six dice IF rolls on dwellers, purple sun etc.

for that matter... some of the other book lores are pretty brutal even not counting the level six... didn't your dark elves kinda prove that when they switched lores???

I like the idea of terrain doing something... this true LOS issue seems pretty strange in 40K, but at least in that system you get a cover save of 4+ if you shoot through terrain.... so at least they account for the fact that shooting through a forest actually might be difficult... with a futuristic cannon... never mind an arrow!!!!

I'm all for trying out tweaks to the system to make it fun and tactical again....

[stonecutter]

The impact of not adding a caster's levels to casting attempts is quite significant, even when 6 dice are tossed with a 4th level:

1. Odds of success go from ~55% down to ~21% for dwellers/13th

2. Likelihood of IF is still ~25%.

3. By not adding the caster level to casting/dispelling, 1-2 more dice are required on every spell (thus shortening the magic phase) and a defending player doesn't have to throw a couple extra dice to make up for the +4 difference, thus making their DD effective.

I concur that the smaller spells are still quite effective. However, removing the caster level helps deal with this since fewer spells can be cast with the same number of dice and they are easier to dispel. Some armies absolutely need a bit of magic support (vamps, ogres, TK, etc) and I wouldn't want to remove magic entirely from the game, just tone it down.

[Jack Shrapnel]

good points.... and mathhammer too... gotta love that

seems like a good thing to at least try out and see how it works....

[usscott]

here if you what to real take down the instant death spell just all char take look out sir and take out the no save thing to .

[Jack Shrapnel]

I had thought that myself previously.... allow saves + look out sir for characteristic tests

dwellers / purple sun isn't nearly as bad when you actually get a save for it....

In privateer press games there isn't even the ability to dispel a spell.. they just make it follow the same dynamic - you cast it (automatically if you have the focus) then you have to hit, wound etc. within the same dynamic of all other rules... and pretty over the top spell effects at times too, but having magic have to follow the same rules as everything else (shooting/melee) does alot to mitigate the damage....

[thesanityassassin]

Yup. Ward Saves at the very least. Might make Magic Resistance actually matter again. Hardly anyone bothers to use Magic Missiles anymore with Direct Damage being as powerful as it is.