More new Tau rules

[VaUkos]

Dec 23, 2021 1:21:18 GMT -5 StepwisePilot said:

Dec 21, 2021 22:51:20 GMT -5 VaUkos said:

As Racey said they went from 40 -> 50 it was some where after 6th ed also i might need to rebase one of my commanders too im thinking about getting these for simplicity and not having to remake my basing ( www.ebay.ca/itm/174172376388 ) im not sure if anyone knows something better or not or if they have had experience with these too.

I'm assuming that since it was in 6th edition, any Crisis Suits or Start Collecting sets bought these days would have the 50mm base already. Well, I would hope so anyway.

Actually, on that note, what edition did Start Collecting boxes first come out in? 

I believe they started coming out around the end of 2015 and start of 2016 because i remember space marines and tyranids being the first ones to release or be in the nexus.  

[lightcavalier]

www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/29/nobody-is-safe-from-the-awesome-power-of-the-tau-empires-new-and-improved-railgun/

So the hammerhead railgun now one shots any vehicle or monster w 10 wounds or fewer....or can just liquefy a large unit for a CP.

I'll be curious to see how the broadside version plays out.

[Jack Shrapnel]

what the actual hell GW?

rerollable to hit S14 -6 AP ignore invuls, D3+6 + 3 mortals?

so it just one shots any S7 monster easily, with a decent chance of one shotting a 12 wound monster/vehicle.

and it's not the strongest gun they have according to that article?

Why would they make a gun that destructive with literally zero defense against it?

[cmcd]

Well not what i was hoping for, but seems better. Also seems broken. The hammerhead has been obsolete IMO for a few editions, this is a fresh look at it. Submunitions is messed up. I dont think that even counts as a shooting attack.

[macstern]

The new railgun is stupid. How will knights face tau min 10 dmg. I might be seeing something wrong here but this is just stupid imho. Althoug i do like the horde strat for it. bye bye rhino.

[dave]

Railgun has been crap since the beginning of 8th, but it was more an issue of reliability, rather than potency. I'm happy to see it get the new standard d?+?, but ummm wow? I was just asking for a second shot.

Wont be too hard to kill with anti tank at t7, 13 wounds, but yeah they are going to be a priority.

I don't even know how the submunition is going to interact with things.

[macstern]

Its a feels bad type weapon, some of the coolest moments and hardest to swallow are the six up saves but that does not feel as bad as no save at all. Its just starting to feel weird guns that murder anything, and models that have plot armour so they cant be killed in a single round. I am newish to the game so maybe this is "just the way" of 40k, not sure.

[Frosty the Pirate]

Dec 29, 2021 9:51:02 GMT -5 Jack Shrapnel said:

what the actual hell GW?

rerollable to hit S14 -6 AP ignore invuls, D3+6 + 3 mortals?

so it just one shots any S7 monster easily, with a decent chance of one shotting a 12 wound monster/vehicle.

and it's not the strongest gun they have according to that article?

Why would they make a gun that destructive with literally zero defense against it?

Keep in mind we don't know points. The Hammerhead isn't exactly know to be a durable chassis at T7 W12 3+ and it's giant size. If these were like 170 each they'd be broken AF, but I'd guess they have to be significantly more than that with this kind of profile.

I'd guess the reroll is also going to be important because Hammerheads will clearly not get CORE and Tau are a BS4+ army. Having a minus to hit is _extra_ effective against a single shot weapon like this. Ultra-high-risk-high-reward

[Jack Shrapnel]

They could have made it a D3+3 2 shot weapon with -4 AP and people would have been quite happy to take one. Hell even a flat 6 damage weapon would have made it pretty fantastic (equal to the silent king's Menhirs - which is a 450 point unit!)

but these numbers, along with reroll to hit, dropping mortals on top and ignoring invuls and all armor saves seems a little much. Not to mention they can proc 8 mortals on a non-monster/vehicle if your opponent brings none to the table.

They better be expensive.

(I'm also not worried about ONE of them... I'm worried about three... plus whatever the broadsides can add to this)

[dave]

I also wonder what they will do to longstrike. At the moment he is a unique datasheet (so we could see 4 railheads on the table), hits on 2+ and gives hammerheads (including himself) a +1 to hit in a bubble.

Obviously points will be a large factor in how this plays out.

I'm more excited to see that reworked markerlight table they mention though.

[lightcavalier]

There seem to be alot of unintended consequences to the way they wrote these rules

For example a single hit from the hammerhead railgun will kill outright

1x 10W or fewer vehicle or monster (unless it has damage reduction or FNP...and even then itll still take it down alot)

2x Terminator or equivalent

2x Space marine or equivalent + 1 wound

4x Harlequins (or any other 1 W model)

So without even getting into the submunition you have a single shot gun that kills 4/5 of a squad of harlequins outright or almost half a squad of guardsmen.

Honestly what I was expeding was something more like flat 6 damage, AP -4 or -5, and maybe a resurgance of the "damage along this line" rule (the Void Dragon has it....)

Like fluff wise this profile makes total sense...but no one else gets direct fluff to rules weapons translations so it just feels bad/out of place.

Its really going to come down to cost...if you can rock this thing + broadsides with their baby version of it + crisis suits w fusion blasters etc and your just liquifiying monsters/vehicles

[raceygaming]

Honestly I do get people not loving this, if T'au end up being mid to high mid table guardians in the meta then its going to be a pretty big counter to elite and monstrous armies. If you know in a 6 round tournament you might face 2 tau players you really aren't going to want to bring Nidzilla, 5 Exalted demons, IG mech, Raider spam, Custodes, maybe even Deathguard and Dark angles see a nerf to the terminators use. So tau might be a meta pressure back to the horde based lists, which is...interesting??

So in terms of rock paper scissors, tau is gonna be a massive ROCK to 1 wounds elite, 3 wound and 9+ wound crowds SCISSORS. Knight are probably in the worst position since they can't really hide and they just have to stand and hope for a miss or fail to wound, otherwise with a 2 luck rolls the knight is 2 tapped for 24 damage. However things like blight lords terminators (or any terminator) are going to lose 2 each time this thing hits as you sent min 6 damage to the first terminators, 3 mortals to the next one. (Custodes guard, hive guard, Gravis armour, Crisis suits, Mega nobz are not going to enjoy this). But to cherry on top it elite 1 wound infantry, 1 hit kills 4 Incubi or harlies. (the shot + 3 mortals).

In general I'm going to say this was sloppy or lazy design on GWs part, to make a anti large weapon that is so effective against so many things while keeping it oppressively good vs anti large. I will say my wish list did involve Tau rail guns becoming "haywire" so wounds rolls of 4-5 did d3 mortals and 6s did flat 3 in addition to flat 3 damage that yo could save and I thought I was reaching for the stars. I would have never have guessed 7-9 unsavable damage, +3 unsavable damage!

I guess we will see how things shake out but I'm assuming the rail/smart hammer head is going to start between 230-250 pts based on this (long strike being closer to 275). So I guess if some one is going to do 1000 pts in tanks + 1000 pts in other than maybe it will have counter play but the alpha strike is going to be VERY OPPERSSIVE!

[raceygaming]

Dec 29, 2021 11:14:43 GMT -5 lightcavalier said:

There seem to be alot of unintended consequences to the way they wrote these rules

For example a single hit from the hammerhead railgun will kill outright

1x 10W or fewer vehicle or monster (unless it has damage reduction or FNP...and even then itll still take it down alot)

2x Terminator or equivalent

2x Space marine or equivalent + 1 wound

4x Harlequins (or any other 1 W model)

So without even getting into the submunition you have a single shot gun that kills 4/5 of a squad of harlequins outright or almost half a squad of guardsmen.

Honestly what I was expeding was something more like flat 6 damage, AP -4 or -5, and maybe a resurgance of the "damage along this line" rule (the Void Dragon has it....)

Like fluff wise this profile makes total sense...but no one else gets direct fluff to rules weapons translations so it just feels bad/out of place.

Its really going to come down to cost...if you can rock this thing + broadsides with their baby version of it + crisis suits w fusion blasters etc and your just liquifiying monsters/vehicles

I do agree that there seems to be a restrictor clause missing like, after damage is dealt if the target is a monster or vehicle it suffers 3 mortal wounds. This affect can only occur once per turn.
This gun is going to be so crazy swingy on overwatch, assuming TAU TAU keep the hitting on 5s in overwatch a luck round from this kills 4 incubi/harlies or 2 terminators or 12 wounds to a keeper of secrets on overwatch.

[lightcavalier]

Honestly my bigger concern (as noted above) is going to be the broadside

At the moment its ROF 2 (becaues its twin heavy rail rifles) and 2S lower than the Hammerhead's gun.

My gut is saying the broadside is probably going to be in the realm of

Range 60+", S10-12, AP -4 or -5, D 3+3, or even D6+2 or 3. It will likely also ignore invuls and do 1-2 MW on a successful wound.

Which in batches of 3 and supported by shield drones, is going to be way more dangerous than a single hammerhead even if its profile looks a little lighter

[raceygaming]

Dec 29, 2021 11:39:42 GMT -5 lightcavalier said:

Honestly my bigger concern (as noted above) is going to be the broadside

At the moment its ROF 2 (becaues its twin heavy rail rifles) and 2S lower than the Hammerhead's gun.

My gut is saying the broadside is probably going to be in the realm of

Range 60+", S10-12, AP -4 or -5, D 3+3, or even D6+2 or 3. It will likely also ignore invuls and do 1-2 MW on a successful wound.

Which in batches of 3 and supported by shield drones, is going to be way more dangerous than a single hammerhead even if its profile looks a little lighter

Ya if I had to put down a wager now that I know what the Hammerhead does I'm going with

Heavy 2 S9 AP-5 d3+3 - each successful wound roll does 1 mortal wound.

So on a failed save they are hitting for 5-7 but you will get invuls vs the smaller version, now that's 14 damage if they both hit. Again I'm going to guess rail/missile boardsides are going to be 165 pts if they get the 8 wounds they should have.