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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 6, 2022 7:25:20 GMT -5
Few different rumor leaks about the contents of Warzone Nephilim dropped over the weekend.
Most of it pertains to the detachment and command point changes. Two slightly different versions have been given merit from different sources which may indicate several play test versions were tested.
Rumor seems to suggest that indeed starting CP for strike force sized games will be cut to 6CP as mentioned previously.
Another rumor suggested that the 'free relic and free warlord trait' may be going away too, meaning you'd not only start with 6 CP you would have to buy any traits or relics, and the upper limit would hence be two of each instead of three.
Please take this all with lots of salt. Given the (lack of) official released info so far there's a ton of room for fakes.
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Jun 6, 2022 14:48:52 GMT -5
Interesting. Those changes would further throttle down CP, makes me wonder what the end goal is here since the books are still chock-full of niche stratagems that will never see use in a world where you only have a couple of points to burn each turn.
Maybe stratagems are dramatically changing or even being replaced for 10th and this is priming us towards that.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 6, 2022 16:22:52 GMT -5
I'm most looking forward to the big revamp of everyone's faction secondaries at once. Balance it all out so everyone has something useful would be my hope. Currently they're completely all over the map in terms of usefulness.
The secondary system and mission revamps are the best parts of 9th (remember the 5 objective missions and one kill points we had before?) So I really hope they take a good look at this and make some improvements.
CP is also pretty weird how they do it being front loaded like that. I'm interested to see how this changes.
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Post by trantos01 on Jun 6, 2022 17:37:52 GMT -5
I mean if they trim down the CP levels at the start of the game but give you more ways to recover them over time, it might make it more engaging.
Because how often has a game been decided because somebody can build an alpha-strike list that blows most of the CP in the first turn to wipe as much of the board as possible or whatever? With a change to CP, you can still get all those goodies and cool strats but it's a lot harder to fire them all off at once unless you save for a turn or two.
Of course this is ultimately a wild guess, who knows what GW will be doing.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 7, 2022 7:02:13 GMT -5
Because how often has a game been decided because somebody can build an alpha-strike list that blows most of the CP in the first turn to wipe as much of the board as possible or whatever? With a change to CP, you can still get all those goodies and cool strats but it's a lot harder to fire them all off at once unless you save for a turn or two. Yeah, by the competitive-oriented battle reports I've viewed recently, there is definitely a trend towards hard-burning a ton of CP on T1/T2 for alpha strikes, but there's also a trend where lists are constructed around planning to use the same specific stratagem on a certain strong/tough/powerful unit every turn, or at least several times during a game. This was recently highlighted 'tip of the iceberg' style when Custodes players were able to use their most powerful strats every turn, turning off the vast majority of buffs used against them reactively. I expect a combination fix to these two issues, we already know starting CP will likely be reduced, but I wouldn't be surprised to also see some other cap put in place like "A unit may only be under the effect of one stratagem at a time" to reduce some of the combos available to certain factions. I'm not sure if or how this will happen, but I feel like GW wants to reduce the "boiling down to the three 'good' strats" in every book in some way. Effectively force some variety in the strats people use.
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Post by trantos01 on Jun 7, 2022 19:33:39 GMT -5
The problem with handling the aspect of "boiling down to the three 'good' strats" is that reducing the number of CP etc isn't going to stop people from cataloging them like this. People are still going to use them, they just won't be able to use them as much.
My thought on this issue would be reworking stratagems entirely. Instead of some 'common use' and 'circumstantial' ones; have them all be only useful in very particular situations where you need to work yourself and/or your opponent into fulfilling the prereqs as it were etc. But if said situation is right, using the stratagem can really turn the tide in your favor and/or ensure victory.
Meanwhile the 'always used' stratagems get baked into various units as innate abilities but there are risks/downsides to using them. Sort of like supercharging Imperial plasma weapons.
For example Doomsday Arks have a strat that can improve their invul save by one. Well now they can do it whenever but that diverted power results in temporarily decreased stats in the coming turn. Maybe it can only fire it's main cannon at low power or something.
Or skorpekh destroyers who have a '-1 to wound' defensive strat. Sure they can now do it for 'free' but have a minus to charge and/or can't reroll ones in combat because they're focusing on deflecting incoming attacks.
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Post by lightcavalier on Jun 7, 2022 19:38:17 GMT -5
The problem with handling the aspect of "boiling down to the three 'good' strats" is that reducing the number of CP etc isn't going to stop people from cataloging them like this. People are still going to use them, they just won't be able to use them as much. My thought on this issue would be reworking stratagems entirely. Instead of some 'common use' and 'circumstantial' ones; have them all be only useful in very particular situations where you need to work yourself and/or your opponent into fulfilling the prereqs as it were etc. But if said situation is right, using the stratagem can really turn the tide in your favor and/or insure victory. Meanwhile the 'always used' stratagems get baked into various units as innate abilities but there are risks/downsides to using them. Sort of like supercharging Imperial plasma weapons. For example Doomsday Arks have a strat that can improve their invul save by one. Well now they can do it whenever but that diverted power results in temporarily decreased stats in the coming turn. Maybe it can only fire it's main cannon at low power or something. Or skorpekh destroyers who have a '-1 to wound' defensive strat. Sure they can now do it for 'free' but have a minus to charge and/or can't reroll ones in combat because they're focusing on deflecting incoming attacks. Going back to just having unit abilities (with a trade off if significantly beneficial) would be great. Half the eldar strats are literally just wargear that costs CP to use....
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 13, 2022 9:09:28 GMT -5
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 13, 2022 10:06:13 GMT -5
The hint seems to imply the leak the other week about Traits and Relics being changed may have some merit.
I'm sure preview videos and articles will be inbound pretty soon then too.
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Post by lightcavalier on Jun 14, 2022 10:31:11 GMT -5
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Post by raceygaming on Jun 14, 2022 11:50:30 GMT -5
Ooof this really puts the screws to Orks. I'm glad that the point updates are coming out soon as well because this would nudge my orks into the realm of Ultra bottom tier. Most lists relay around a double Outrider or a triple patrol build AND often include 2-3 warlord traits and 2-3 relics with most lists spending 5-8 CP before the battle.
On the flip side I think you are going to be seeing a lot more named characters as it looks like they will get the WLT without paying.
There are gonna need to be some big adjustments needed a bunch of codex to help correct for this. Also would be interesting to see more stuff move to a point buy rather than CP.
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Post by lightcavalier on Jun 14, 2022 12:28:53 GMT -5
Im not so sure on the named character WLT thing
As it generally is formatted as "if this character has a WLT it must be X" and the only way to get a WLT now will be to spend 1 CP
But still the overall value of named characters has still risen because they come with more baked in abilities and relic like weapons.
The funniest thing here is that the only WLT that is even worth it for me in my space marine army is selfless healer for my apothecary, because the CP savings over the coruse of the game are just too good to pass up
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 14, 2022 12:45:57 GMT -5
Be thankful if you don't play daemons... With the only viable units in the hq slot multiple patrols are the only semi viable build and exalted greater daemons cost you a cp each! My slaanesh list would be still at negative cp even if I didn't take a relic or warlord trait!
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Post by raceygaming on Jun 14, 2022 13:01:16 GMT -5
Ya if you rely on anything that is a "one per detachment" - Warboss, Hive tyrant, Commanders, Great daemons then you are kinda screwed. Also there are some armies that MUCH more heavily rely on relic/traits than others. I think one of the biggest winner if points don't change too much are the Salamanders. They are the sleepers of the Marines I think.
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Post by artonas on Jun 14, 2022 13:15:49 GMT -5
Be thankful if you don't play daemons... With the only viable units in the hq slot multiple patrols are the only semi viable build and exalted greater daemons cost you a cp each! My slaanesh list would be still at negative cp even if I didn't take a relic or warlord trait! This makes me so sad. They really need to bring out that new Daemon book cause they will be hurting real bad when this drops.
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