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Post by LizardTau on Dec 7, 2011 21:29:54 GMT -5
yeah normal grey knights list,
Hq Grand master Elites 5 paladins Techmarine Troops 7 termies 9 strike squad in rhino heavy 2 dreadnoughts land raider
add stuff like psychotroke grenades, and stuff and i think it would do pretty good and its a 15 comp
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 7, 2011 21:47:48 GMT -5
So if I use 2 HQ and a Greater Daemon I lose 2pts there? the heralds are a 2 for one choice, so count as ONE HQ in the daemon codex in all respects... so with the greater daemon is -1 comp what'll really hit though is the elites and heavies are usually maxed for daemons, so that's where you end up losing more of the points...
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 7, 2011 21:54:40 GMT -5
yeah normal grey knights list, Hq Grand master Elites 5 paladins Techmarine Troops 7 termies 9 strike squad in rhino heavy 2 dreadnoughts land raider add stuff like psychotroke grenades, and stuff and i think it would do pretty good and its a 15 comp yep, it'd be 15 comp.... but only two scoring units...
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Post by BewareOfTom on Dec 7, 2011 22:12:51 GMT -5
yeah but grand strategy making d3 units scoring
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Post by trevor on Dec 7, 2011 22:25:45 GMT -5
heres the list i was thinking of chaplain chaplain 7 asssault termys in raider transport 7 termys in raider transport 7 scouts with snipers 8 scouts with snipers 10 tactical marines in rihno with upgrades thud gun 17 comp ... IDK that looks pritty cheesy to me but it scores 85% on the comp. basicly no matter what is done there will always be a way around a comp scoreing system it just depends if you have spent the money to have enof models to do it. sorry if thats to blunt ;D
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Post by calitom on Dec 7, 2011 22:37:13 GMT -5
I like your comp system idea Shannon, it looks like it's forgiving for some lists- but is more balanced overall in a better sense (Doesn't hurt you as much if you're a horde army) and it tries to get people to use up some of those slots they normally ignore (looking at you fast attack slot).
But yeah, Trevors is a perfect example of a way around the comp to make a brutal list- though he suffers in other aspects (his troops being less durable in most situations). I think it'll all work out in the end.
Edit : Counting your GK list example in at 16, as the first LR doesn't count against your comping- And yes, we all know that GK breaks every list in every system you could make- I'd personally disallow GK Grand Masters from the comp system, or impose a big penalty on them (Example, you suffer -2 for even having a GK Grand master in your army) just due to the ways they help you get around any comp system.
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Post by LizardTau on Dec 7, 2011 22:55:20 GMT -5
thats true, there is someone who can probably get past most comp scores since there are so many different type of armies. I think your comp idea will be good, but also the idea of a commity or something to review each of the lists, who have the power to adjust the comp score. Like BOT (beware of toms) warrior accolyt army will probably have bearly any comp but maybe they can adjust it, or it trevor did do that list they could adjust the 17 comp he would get, just an idea
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Post by calitom on Dec 7, 2011 23:12:42 GMT -5
As far as I'm seeing for me personally, most of my lists I play regularly are around 16 comp. My DE list and hero bash stormraven list score a bit lower. For example, my list with Mephiston, Sanguinor, 2 dreads, 2 stormravens, 2 attack bikes and 3 assault squads comes in at 12 comp. -3 from HQ total (2 special characters and a second HQ), -2 from Elite total (1 for armor value, 1 for extra elite) and -3 from Heavy support (2 for armor value, 1 for extra heavy) My idea for a more balanced Blood Angels list scores in at 16, which isn't all that bad when you think about it. Edit : Also, with regards to Trevor's list idea- it gave me another idea. If you're making people suffer for FOC changing HQ's, then taking a Heavy support choice as a dedicated transport should also be penalized in that regard Example, in Trevor's list he has a terminator unit with a LRC transport and an assault terminator unit with a LRC transport, he's intentionally taking the 2nd dedicated transport (using the regular terminator unit to bypass the rules) in order to avoid some comp hit. So to avoid this ability, he should not only have to pay for the armor value of the 2nd land raider and the 2nd terminator unit, but also the heavy FOC usage of said land raiders. So here Trevor's 17 point list would change to a 14 point list just for this one change. So as far as comping is concerned, it would look like this : 2 HQ, 2 Elite, 3 troops, 3 Heavy Support. -1 for 2nd HQ, -1 for 2nd elite, -1 for LRC #1, -3 for LRC #2 This way, he wouldn't have to take the regular Terminator unit to try to take advantage and can have both of his TH/SS units.
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Post by LizardTau on Dec 7, 2011 23:22:47 GMT -5
the list i was planing on playing (which i posted on my fluffy list thing, would get a 7, Coteaz (-1), two techmarines and a vindicare (-3), three warbands in rhinos (-6), 2 dreads and a dreadknight (-3), and interceptors
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 8, 2011 6:37:42 GMT -5
hmmm... good points all....
well that was just a starting point.... but I can see a couple things that would need fixing... as per Tom's recommendation
1 - your first armor that is over that amount IS NOT free for comp purposes. (I originally started with one free as I didn't want a standard marine list to score too low)
2 - Dedicated transports should count as their FOC equivalent - ie: a land raider or battlewagon are still counted as heavy for comp purposes.
3 - HQ choices that allow you to swap FOC or otherwise provide the ability to do so (ie: grandmasters for GK) impose the same -1 penalty for a special character.
The GK list originally suffers -3 for heavies, -1 for elite, -1 for HQ - this would bring it to a further -1 for the land raider so 14 comp.... same as for Trevor's list... which seems fair
What I want people to do is TRY to break the comp.... that's the only way we'll see if it works... provide an example of a cheeseball list that breaks the comp and scores high... if you can do it, we have to add more penalties to cover it!
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Post by trevor on Dec 8, 2011 9:21:44 GMT -5
this is going to take to long are tournament will be 2 years from now not 2 months? ;D theres no way i could bring the list above, (i dont have the models), but sombody could. i could make 20 lists that break the comp system 20 differnt ways just for marines if i was given free range on the models... basicly makeing a comp system gives an advantege to thoughs who have the models to break it.
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Post by BewareOfTom on Dec 8, 2011 9:36:38 GMT -5
yeah I think im gunna change to saying no comp now, maybe just encourage fluffy lists? like we all submit short stories for why our army is what it is and you/others judge it?
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 8, 2011 9:37:49 GMT -5
With the changes above can you break it... so far we've got the bare bones of a comp system in TWO DAYS... that's definitely not a long time at all... I'd rather spend a week getting a comp system right then realize a week before the tourney that we're in big trouble!
I don't think it's fair to change the comp system AFTER I get the lists submitted, as it should be transparent to all how we're scoring things... I'm asking for group feedback from everyone here to see if you could find any glaring holes... just like Trevor and Jason did - that helped us make some changes right away that made sense....
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 8, 2011 9:50:54 GMT -5
yeah I think im gunna change to saying no comp now, maybe just encourage fluffy lists? like we all submit short stories for why our army is what it is and you/others judge it? There's going to be comp. The system is going to be tweaked til it's right. Feel free to bring a friendly list all on your own, with stories and themes and all the rest. A comp system doesn't force you to bring fluffy lists or netlists.. it tries to implement some method in the scoring to compensate those who do their best to bring a balanced or themed list.
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Post by BewareOfTom on Dec 8, 2011 9:52:58 GMT -5
well I was just kinda sad that my henchman list with mainly acolytes scores low (like 12ish)
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