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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 14, 2013 10:51:10 GMT -5
dammit... above list is 5 points over (thanks for correcting my shoddy math army builder!) so no banner of blood for the crushers... I'll just have a chump for the crushers... you know, in case they ever make combat...
So playing around with army builder in my frustration with crushers I realized I could instead build this:
HQ:
Bloodthirster - warlord - two greater gifts Skarbrand
troops:
20 bloodletters 20 bloodletters 19 bloodletters
Fast: (could also be 2 units of 15)
10 flesh hounds 10 flesh hounds 10 flesh hounds
Heavy:
skull cannon skull cannon soul grinder of khorne with phlegm bombardment
2,000 points
sigh... flesh hounds are so expensive.... but is it just me or does this instantly seem much better than my existing list?
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Apr 14, 2013 13:30:44 GMT -5
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 14, 2013 14:13:10 GMT -5
....yeah retail price of that many flesh hounds is $1260 before taxes.... The heralds in a hound block for adding the AP2 is something I'm using myself in my existing list... unlike the theoretically "better" list that would just involve some simple math on my part: 5 bloodcrushers with banner = same number of points as 15 flesh hounds karanak + herald on juggernaut (to beef up crushers/hounds) = same number of points as bloodthirster I'm trying to somehow justify keeping 5 crushers + 2 heralds rather than buy 15 flesh hounds and a bloodthirster... because it's clearly better.... it's just thinking about dropping $280 MORE on my khorne list kind of makes me shudder....
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 15, 2013 6:40:52 GMT -5
hmmmmmm wondering how it would play out if I dropped one crusher from the original list, karanak and the herald, and drop banners.. to add a bloodthirster with two greater gifts...
same cost...
what I lose: a couple of heralds beefing up the squad & the ability to scout for the crushers... skarbrand has to start on the table... which he probably should do anyways...
what I gain: a bloodthirster... who could be the warlord and thereby getting a chance at the trait to reroll that stupid warpstorm table... and a pretty tough FMC to boot... man I hate that model though...
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Post by calitom on Apr 15, 2013 21:45:40 GMT -5
Personally, I like the idea of using the Bloodcrusher models for Heralds on Juggernauts to join in units to help keep them robust and deadly in combat even after getting shot up a bit- plus you have plenty of bullet catchers for them!
Would also be really good in the unit(s) of hounds, since the herald gets to scout up with them and give some much needed AP 2 to the unit!
Using as much of what you already have I'd suggest just going with a Khorne / Nurgle list- since they would work together pretty frequently and you have quite a few of the models already! Would just have to buy some dogs for my idea, but who knows-
2-3 units of decently sized dogs (7-10 depending on how much you want in each / how much you want to spend) with a Herald on a Juggernaut, 20 unit of bloodletters with a herald, some units of plaguebearers to deep strike in and hold objectives, Skarbrand and Nurgle beasts / Grinders to fill the rest in. Packs some good punch in CC, can have some decent firing support from skull cannons and Grinders and you wouldn't have to buy too much!
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 16, 2013 5:38:06 GMT -5
You're right Tom... a mixed list is much more viable... I totally agree with you there...
unfortunately for me I bought all the models to run a mono-khorne list and you know I'm a sucker for theme... lol...
I will eventually be working on a final mixed god list to fine tune... for the khorne I think you're right that I should just use the models as heralds...
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 16, 2013 6:44:18 GMT -5
Taking Tom's suggestion of heralds and dogs... but still staying mono-khorne of course HQ: Skarbrand (warlord) Herald of khorne on juggernaut with axe of khorne (so has AP2) Herald of khorne on juggernaut with axe of khorne Herald of khorne on juggernaut with axe of khorne Herald of khorne on juggernaut with axe of khorne 15 bloodletters 15 bloodletters 15 bloodletters 15 bloodletters 10 flesh hounds 10 flesh hounds Skull cannon of khorne Skull cannon of khorne Soul grinder of khorne with phlegm bombardment 60 T3 wounds 40 T4 wounds 12 T5 wounds 5 T6 wounds 2 AV12 vehicles, 1 AV13 shooting is only 3 S8 large blasts/turn... but that's it! ------------------------ So two heralds in each hound squad, both of which scout up... this gives the hounds two characters that are WS7 T5 and a total of 10 S6 AP2 attacks on the charge, along with the 30 S5 dog attacks. With skarbrand in range this goes to 12 S6 AP2 attacks and 40 S5 attacks on the charge all with hatred. Skull cannons give grenades for the turn two charge, and the soul grinder does what soul grinders do... rain inaccurate templates of AP3 death I'm still particularly vulnerable to land raiders unfortunately, but there's not a whole lot I can do about that outside of skarbrand and the soul grinder in combat. Anti-air is likewise going to be a problem, but outside of an expensive FMC or spray-and-pray from Mr. BS3 soulgrinder... there's also not alot I can do about that... I'm feeling a little better about terminators though... this would allow me to still use my crusher models, but as something far more survivable and deadly (double the points though... lol) I'm not sure if putting the letters into 4x15 rather than 3x20 is a good idea though... would have to playtest this out in different situations... scouring or other multiple objectives I need more units rather than more bodies... T3 with a 5++ though, bolters terrify me... I was anticipating the 20 man units being maybe half strength once they cross the board... dropping 5 bodies each... yikes... but maybe I'm causing enough threat by the hounds/heralds being in your face that the letters will be left alone in the first turn or two... thoughts?
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Post by canadianguy on Apr 16, 2013 7:24:13 GMT -5
Do people still play w LRs? I like the list, a lot. I think only playtesting will let you figure out that 4 of 15 vs 3 of 20 argument. That could be really scenario dependent.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 16, 2013 8:30:54 GMT -5
Yeah I'm trying for an all comers list that I can (spoiler alert!) bring to the June tournament that will be reasonably effective in an all comers environment where I cannot predict what the scenario would be...
and yeah there's still landraiders out there... they're actually still pretty darn effective delivery systems for TH/SS terminators...
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Post by danydaigle24 on Apr 16, 2013 8:55:56 GMT -5
I think 4 X 15 BL is better... I heard lots of good think on a BT with two greater rewards maybe you should try it... Hounds are just fabulous so good choice to go 2 X 10.... very hard to deal with...
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Apr 16, 2013 11:55:33 GMT -5
I really like this list. Dispite it's weakness to land raiders, alot of other armies have such strong counters to land raiders that people are taking them less and less.
The thing I'd be more worried about with this list is dealing with 3+ AV 12-13 Targets, but I suppose most of those are rear armour 10, and can be dealt with in combat.
I'm also with Danny thinking 4x15 is better, but because I think having 4 troops in 6th is mandatory. Especially since many games have 3+ objectives and most opponents will try to focus on killing your scoring units in an objective game.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 16, 2013 12:52:22 GMT -5
yep, I'm leaning towards the 4x15... for the AV 12-13 the S8 ordanance should do okay at whatever is a big threat... I'm fairly used to making little to no headway against mech playing as daemons... and that was when bolt existed! so I'm resigned to having to smash at metal boxes unless the grinder/cannons can sort them out.
In my game last Saturday the rhinos were easy to deal with... and I'm guessing AV12 should be okay but not great... necron skimmers / vindicators are kind of a crap shoot though... probably will have to resort to close combat on those unfortunately...
and at least I get to still use my crusher models... lol....
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 27, 2013 21:27:46 GMT -5
So tried out the double khorne heralds in the units of dogs today, and it's probably the most effective thing I've tried yet... the dogs died horribly the second game (vindicator shells kind of do that sort of thing!) but both times they lasted until the end of the game and these units basically were the workhorses of the list... they're no match for TH/SS termies I don't think, but they were still able to handle most threats fairly comfortably (losses to be sure, but within a turn or two ground through things well)
skarbrand really sucked my second game though... as those dark angel knights charging him with rage and hatred and S10 attacks kind of did a number on him pretty badly... thanks especially to the bonuses he gave them! both times I didn't deep strike him and he really didn't do much of anything which seems like a pretty big waste... so deep striking in is going to be key, otherwise I could have just saved the points on him really... his fluff is so cool though I kinda have to field the guy!
bloodletters in groups of 15 was tried out today as well (because I have 30 done)... I think 20 would be too unwieldy... with spacing them out 15 is plenty big....
the HUGE drawback though? kill points... when you give 5 KP away with just your HQ choices alone, they rack up pretty quickly...
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Post by danydaigle24 on Apr 28, 2013 9:29:16 GMT -5
cool glad to see you start to figure it out Shannon. Did you do well in both games?...Skarbrand is not great but Im sure he gets attention away from the rest of your away for a turn or 2...
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 28, 2013 10:58:41 GMT -5
lol.. well skarbrand failed a charge into belial's terminator squad (who he would have likely wrecked... got charged instead by a unit of five of those knights with the S10 for a turn... giving them 16 S10 attacks with hatred... skarbrand proceeded to get stuffed by their storm shield saves and did no wounds... he took 2 only from that flurry of attacks, then rolled 11 on instability and went poof!
the first game however, he ate an entire squad of sternguard and supported a charge of bloodletters into another squad with his bubble of awesome...
now if skarbrand were fearless instead of unstable, he'd be pretty darn amazing... I think on par with beasts like the swarmlord... when he gets charged though, the combination of his bubble plus instability makes him die most of the time...
luckily I solved the worry about him getting shot at the beginning of the game... 18 hounds and four heralds across the board turn one tends to grab all the attention!
So final list is going to be:
Skarbrand 4 juggernaut heralds with lesser rewards (going with axe of khorne for AP2 at initiative insta-death goodness)
15 bloodletters with banner 15 bloodletters with banner 15 bloodletters with musician (pulls skarbrand) 15 bloodletters
9 flesh hounds (2 juggernaut heralds go here) 9 flesh hounds (2 juggernaut heralds go here)
skull cannon skull cannon soul grinder - khorne with phlegm
skarbrand and the two units of bloodletters without banners in reserve, relying on guiding into the halfway point turn two for bubble and turn three support charges.... hounds/heralds scout up and eat pretty much all the fire of the army turn one unfortunately... but at least it keeps all the T3 guys safe when they run up and yell "shoot me! shoot me!" at the opponent... lol... bloodletters may be slow and all, but when they're ignored, they mess stuff up once they get there... by having two dangerous units in your face turn one, and a crazy bloodthirster there for support turn two, the bloodletters should be low priority...
This list unfortunately gives zero psychic support, and very little shooting, and little that can hurt AV13-14 reliably... game two in my tests, a single landraider ran about unhurt the whole game... once skarbrand dies, the grinder is the only thing in the army that can hurt a raider.
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