Kasrkin Clubs

[silverwhasp]

My question here is, has any other codex gotten rules FAQ'ed by T.O. before? Is there a jurisprudence? If not why now? Why wasn't it done before, is this really the one we want to start asking about changing rules? Tau wasn't an issue last clubs, we didn't change anything then did we?

If we open this can of worms now we have to open it for every codex from now on, for every clubs. Atleast in my opinion. If a rules change was done in a past club champs then I don't mind since it has been done before. However rest assured I WILL be asking to nerf  reword stuff EVERY club champs from now on. (Not really but see my point?)

As a guard player I vote to keep it as written, since the 18 mortal wounds takes a few command points to do it. I won't be bringing Kasrkin but i'd feel bad for those that want to bring it with full as written combo.

[harryf]

I do believe we have FAQ'ed certain options before, I think we made a rule that 2+ saves can't be rerolled

But again, that was 7 years ago.

I'm okay with capping the MWs, or keeping it as is (its what I'm bringing after all), the only solution I'd be against is making 6s to hit not 6s to wound.

[Typhus]

Feb 14, 2023 21:39:19 GMT -5 silverwhasp said:

My question here is, has any other codex gotten rules FAQ'ed by T.O. before? Is there a jurisprudence? If not why now? Why wasn't it done before, is this really the one we want to start asking about changing rules?

I'm of the opinion that a codex should probably be banned until its first FAQ has been published.

[raceygaming]

Feb 14, 2023 21:39:19 GMT -5 silverwhasp said:

My question here is, has any other codex gotten rules FAQ'ed by T.O. before? Is there a jurisprudence? If not why now? Why wasn't it done before, is this really the one we want to start asking about changing rules? Tau wasn't an issue last clubs, we didn't change anything then did we?

If we open this can of worms now we have to open it for every codex from now on, for every clubs. Atleast in my opinion. If a rules change was done in a past club champs then I don't mind since it has been done before. However rest assured I WILL be asking to nerf  reword stuff EVERY club champs from now on. (Not really but see my point?)

As a guard player I vote to keep it as written, since the 18 mortal wounds takes a few command points to do it. I won't be bringing Kasrkin but i'd feel bad for those that want to bring it with full as written combo.

Also in 7th we did have flat ban on formation that were not fixed after they were shown to break the games mechanics, example the Adamantium Lance for knights that gave all knights a 3++ re-rollable back when dealing with Armor values was a pain. Army Comp scores for Riptide wing, War Con, Librious Conclave etc.


I will say, while I don't disagree with the sentiment of waiting for an official FAQ, I would suggest looking at it from the can of worms perspective. A lot of Places did ask the same question you are and I think many of them went the route of " A codex is not legal for tournament play until a FAQ has been released for it". If that is something that the club wants to examine going forward, maybe we could have a conversation about it.

For now I would say some people and other communities have seen enough issues that is has been brought to the attention of the T.O.

[raceygaming]

Feb 14, 2023 22:15:05 GMT -5 Typhus said:

Feb 14, 2023 21:39:19 GMT -5 silverwhasp said:

My question here is, has any other codex gotten rules FAQ'ed by T.O. before? Is there a jurisprudence? If not why now? Why wasn't it done before, is this really the one we want to start asking about changing rules?

I'm of the opinion that a codex should probably be banned until its first FAQ has been published.

You Sniped me.

I think this is a common route and something we could look at as a club/group going forward but I think at this point this options won't be viable for this tournament as lists have been submitted and things get more murky as GW in their infinity wisdom does this weird early edition collector release things like they did with Guard and Orks when Codexs were out 3-4 months before an FAQ came down.

[Hi I'm Derek]

Feb 14, 2023 21:39:19 GMT -5 silverwhasp said:

Tau wasn't an issue last clubs...

I have no particular skin in this debate since I am not going, but I would like to contest this point. I think I had more conversations about how unpleasant facing Tau was that event than anything else- it was perhaps the most consistent topic of discourse with the people I interacted with not only for that entire weekend, but it's come up in nearly every convo I've had about club champs since. And to put this in perspective, I literally have never played a game against 9th edition Tau! I almost completely stopped playing WH40k until teams immediately after and I never had to play Tau at either of those events, purely by chance. I was just an observer in those conversations lol

Take from that what you will.

As an aside, what ever happened to that movement to prohibit pre-faq books from comp-style events? I always thought that was a good idea, much cleaner than dealing with no-win debates about wombo combos.

Edit: lol this thread got hot- many people have posted since I last refreshed

[Jack Shrapnel]

Feb 14, 2023 21:39:19 GMT -5 silverwhasp said:

My question here is, has any other codex gotten rules FAQ'ed by T.O. before? Is there a jurisprudence? If not why now? Why wasn't it done before, is this really the one we want to start asking about changing rules? Tau wasn't an issue last clubs, we didn't change anything then did we?

If we open this can of worms now we have to open it for every codex from now on, for every clubs. Atleast in my opinion. If a rules change was done in a past club champs then I don't mind since it has been done before. However rest assured I WILL be asking to nerf  reword stuff EVERY club champs from now on. (Not really but see my point?)

As a guard player I vote to keep it as written, since the 18 mortal wounds takes a few command points to do it. I won't be bringing Kasrkin but i'd feel bad for those that want to bring it with full as written combo.

Well, we have made decisions before at previous club champs on various things as others have pointed out. The issue is that the combo in question goes against other recent rulings (ie: Votann) and only works because of one word in the interaction being written differently. 

I haven't FAQ'd really anything as a T.O., I opened up the topic for discussion, given it is the current issue from a rules perspective that the community as a whole is trying to sort, with different solutions being made by different T.O's. I didn't actually want to make any house rules just on my own at all, however I do need to make rulings at the tournament, and I figured instead of me just arbitrarily saying how something works (or just saying, sorry guard players, no FAQ you cannot play your new codex - which alot of tourneys have done - and was suggested above)

I run tournaments for a very friendly community who generally play narrative tournaments for MOST of our tournies. That means I have to prioritize the needs of the entire community over any one player, especially when it comes to RAW vs. RAI arguments. 

I honestly haven't seen the guard players attending with Kasrkin's say that 18 mortal wounds from a 100 point unit is the balanced and best way to rule it. This is the players BRINGING the unit in question. (and not all guard players attending are bringing this unit)

If everyone was posting "leave as it is because it's fine" there'd be no discussion... in fact I wouldn't have even created this thread.

But discussion of something is very, very different from making a rules call as a T.O. 

....if it were me just making the call, I'd not have made this thread, only an announcement of how I am interpreting this unit in a fair (in my mind) way. But I'm not a guard player. Nor am I guaranteed to even play in this tournament (only if the numbers work out). So I figured I shouldn't just make a decision without input from the community, which we've done in the past with formations including admantine lance, the rerollable screamer 2+ invul combo, riptide wing.. and other things which were RAW completely and perfectly legal, but we felt as a whole affected the community in a negative way. 

 

[matthewbri]

I would be okay on a prohibition of the unit or the boom. Probably too late for the book but making up 100pnts in a guard list is pretty easy.



And thank you Shannon for opening this up to community debate

[VaUkos]

I definitely see some good points and some heated one's but to throw in my somewhat valuable coin's I'm of the opinion the codex should stay as is and here is why,

i can definitely see how over powerful and broken the rule is with no max cap and how bad that could be for me or for others that play against guard players, but every faction that as been released had some "this is to OP and will ruin the balance & fun of it" rule's, I'll even out my own faction first, Tau they have rail-rifles that ignore invuls, necron's with an HQ with max wounds per phase and if i remember correctly the re-animation, Daemons with daemon save's, votann with their weapons too, Orks had one and even spacemarine's I mostly forget what they were because why dwindle on that stuff, because it's not a faction or rules that make's this game fun it's actually playing it and experiencing it, now i understand yes winning does feel nice and is tastey but you get the enjoyment of playing regardless how bad it is for you (shudder's and understands why the imperium fears warp powers).

but look at how much were the guards joked on how bad or low rateing they were for the past year or more, hell let them have their "15 minutes of fun & fame" and run with it before they lose it, because it's also ultimately up to the player how many mortals they want to dish out if they want to put their opponent up against the wall and get skulled, *maybe focus on those units first too* because you don't know if they want to take advantage of powerful rule or give them some bit of an edge or contingency for when they get skulled them selves to gain control back.

now I understand that this is thee tournament of every season, our most competitive one too were it's balls to the wall, knife at the throat where there is actual award to win, but now to fight for the other side abit understand that there is an another person on the other-side of that table not some AI robot that does feel, their is an human with feelings and emotions and this is an community tournament were we mostly come to play and have fun so that other person/person's are here to mostly have fun and enjoy their weekend or one of the few time's they get to play. so maybe if the powerful rule is causing a bit of distress, maybe tone it down a bit but the choice is yours.

now if were still thinking of maxing it and that idea is locked in, maybe max to 18 which is the avg so they get atleast 9 minutes of fun and fame and some teeth and threat, well that's it and anyone want to call me out on anything and say your piece too i won't be hurt nor do i want this to hurt but for reason to been seen.

Also p.s don't give jack actual shrapnel about making this into an discussion because from his point he's trying to see what the community thinks and want's and not assumes what yall want plus he busy too so need's to know what to focus on.

Edit : for another point on more factions and op ruling's please look up at matthewbri's profile picture (sorry buddy just wanted to add another bit/point ) 

[ohgodsnakes]

Feb 14, 2023 23:30:25 GMT -5 matthewbri said:

I would be okay on a prohibition of the unit or the boom. Probably too late for the book but making up 100pnts in a guard list is pretty easy.



And thank you Shannon for opening this up to community debate

kasrkin are not the issue. They don't stat check anyone. The issue is 5 or 6 overlapping buffs that when played together at just the right time create a MW factory. Taking even one piece out of that puzzle drastically changes the math.

Banning the book is a complete non starter. There are at least 4 people bringing guard to the tourney, and I bet they have been working on their armies for months.

I will admit that I too am bringing guard, and a unit of kasrkin, but they are not set up the way they should to maximize the MW bomb. I've also been playing a nerfed version of Overcharged Laz Cells, and they feel pretty good at 6 MW per activation instead of per target.

The last thing to keep in mind is that they are probably only going to get to do the strat once. They need LOS and don't have a way to move after shooting, so they'll be out in the wind. If an army can't handle 10 dudes as tough as fire warriors, it's got bigger problems.

[cmcd]

I am not playing guard.
But I feel that we shouldn't put in any house rules that affect only one faction. If you were to say Max 6 MW from a attack then that should be the same across the board for all factions.

GW will send out a FAQ at some point and it will be addressed.

I say Leave it as is.

Yes if everything lines up you could output 18MW. but that is 18MW over 3 units, and in order to do that you need to spend 2CP - You have to have the Born Soldiers Regimental Doctrine. Cant use any other doctrine. Only 1 unit can deep strike with THE BARBICANT’S KEY only once Which costs 1 CP.. Kasrkin Dont normally deep strike. so if you have multiple units that you want to buff with LORD SOLAR LEONTUS you can only do one. a turn.

And Quite Frankly. They just turn Kasrkin into a High Priority Target. Or a one shot wonder.

In Reality. How many Players are bringing Kasrkin? 2 out of 32. maybe 3.
Grey Knights can output a lot of mortal wounds. Nids can too. Kasrkin is a 10W unit with T3 and 4+ Armour. for 100points.

If it was a big concern for the meta GW would have already released a FAQ for it like they did for Voltran.

I VOTE for leaving it as is, with the cavet that if a FAQ drops before Saturday. That you use the ruling for the FAQ.

[mrmanstory]

Hmmm i wasnt even thinking of the hobby aspect. I know if i was a guard player (which I'm not) I wouldn't be very happy if I painted and planned a list for guard then had a part of the list get house ruled. I know I wouldn't have been happy if part of crusher stampede got house ruled last year. Maybe we should just leave it as is. As other people have said 2 people are bringing the problem unit?

[MagnusTheThicc]

well I think the thread started as a discussion around if we should address this specific interaction as other communities have because most people expect the change is only a matter of time to fix the wording. Then the 'ban a book before FAQ' is a suggestion being brought forward to possibly future proof from these situations happening again. I don't think anyone is actually suggesting banning the army right now 3 days out with painting/hobby requirement in place, but if we as a community agreed to waiting for an FAQ-required type situation then people wouldn't be blindsided by a last minute ban.

If I had to vote. for the time being the suggested 6MW cap is the best we could do, I reckon

[Jack Shrapnel]

The guard codex will NOT be banned for clubs. No way I'd ever consider that.

In the future we can look at "no FAQ can't play" as a cutoff, but not doing that here and now.

Guard are not flat out busted like Votann or Nids were at launch (well Votann pre-nerfed before launch I guess lol)

I'm looking at this one unit doing one stacked mortal wound bomb, then likely dying to the return fire. (as Lukas said, if you can't deal with 10 T3 4+ save models there's more going on).

I'm trying to see if this is ENOUGH of an issue that we need to adjust this (in the least impactful way possible) as other places have done, or if we just let it lie (like we did with tau last year)

There are pros and cons to both options, which is why we should all talk about it and try to come to a consensus.

Were there MANY hard feelings last year about tau? Yup. I field all the complaints remember? (plus you know, I hear quite a bit of post-game chatter).

This is about all of YOU and what you think is fair.

My personal opinion is that IF something is done I think that the maximum that should be done is cap the mortals on the squad to 6, regardless of the number of targets. This is how other similar abilities have been ruled by GW. I cannot think of a unit in the game right now that has uncapped mortals.

But I'm also fine with just leaving it as is, because at the end of the day this isn't MY gaming experience, it's yours, and I want everyone to have a great weekend of 40k!

[voodoo]

Feb 15, 2023 0:22:13 GMT -5 cmcd said:

I am not playing guard.
But I feel that we shouldn't put in any house rules that affect only one faction. If you were to say Max 6 MW from a attack then that should be the same across the board for all factions.

The only problem there is, every other shooting attack that works the way Kasrkins do already has a 6MW cap put into place. The only ones that don't are spells that (depending on your opponent) can be shut down. We all know if you have LoS and range, there's nothing but the controlling player stopping those shots.

There's been a lot of good options put forth about how to balance/mitigate the potential impact such an infinitesimally low point cost unit can have on the game as a whole. The point about a Codex only becoming legal for tournament until after their FAQ is released begs a larger question that should be continued post champs.

For the time being; I'm in support of a 6MW cap per phase, and possibly a limitation on the strats that make said combo broken. Custodes had a bunch of their broken strats made a once per game. If Kasrkins are only able to do that combo once, and are capped at 6MW; then they CAN soften up a target, or kill something that critically needs to die; but not clear out something several size categories larger than themselves.

If that seems like too blunt force a ruling, maybe consider why you'd want or need to do that more often when plasma russes and the plethora of other incredibly powerful options exist in the book. Kasrkins are currently the hot button topic, but in reality; there are more than a few head scratchers when it comes to point costs and abilities in that book. But, that's another topic for another day.