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Post by voodoo on Feb 15, 2023 7:57:45 GMT -5
Another option could be that if the unit is important enough to your army and playstyle; then we don't modfiy anything, but anyone bringing Kasrkins are excluded from Best General and Best Overall.
A far more blunt and inelegant solution, but makes 6 per phase seem pretty palatable.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Feb 15, 2023 8:06:04 GMT -5
Another option could be that if the unit is important enough to your army and playstyle; then we don't modfiy anything, but anyone bringing Kasrkins are excluded from Best General and Best Overall. A far more blunt and inelegant solution, but makes 6 per phase seem pretty palatable. no, cannot do that either. |
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Post by harryf on Feb 15, 2023 8:47:09 GMT -5
I don't get why this unit is being seen as so game changing. It's very very good but speaking from experience it's not a game changing monster.
It might not even be the best datasheet in the codex, certainly nowhere near things like pre nerf Flamers
In general mobility plus resilience tends to break games more than firepower. Yes this thing when buffed can do a ton of damage to things it can see, but at the end of the day it's on a T-3 4+ 6" body
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ItsBird
Warrior
Pigeon, She/they
Posts: 189
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Post by ItsBird on Feb 15, 2023 8:48:50 GMT -5
Don't play guard and havent played against new guard
My genuine opinion is that three of my units taking (an average of) 6 mortal wounds from a 100pt unit obviously sounds very powerful but I doubt that its going to be the most FeelsBad super powerful BS power that I come across this weekend.
Capping it at 6MWs total makes sense but im not so concerned that it seems necessary to me.
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Post by silverwhasp on Feb 15, 2023 8:51:52 GMT -5
I know Wahapedia isn`t an official source, but on their website they state this:
"Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase, when a KASRKIN or MILITARUM TEMPESTUS unit from your army is selected to shoot. Until the end of the phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack with a hot-shot weapon, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any normal damage. A unit can only suffer a maximum of 6 mortal wounds per phase as a result of this Stratagem."
They cap it at 6 which is interesting.
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ItsBird
Warrior
Pigeon, She/they
Posts: 189
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Post by ItsBird on Feb 15, 2023 8:56:18 GMT -5
A unit can only suffer a maximum of 6 mortal wounds per phase as a result of this Stratagem." The issue people have is that as written a unit can only recieve 6 but a kasrkin squad can dish out more than 6 by split firing. |
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Post by harryf on Feb 15, 2023 8:56:53 GMT -5
I know Wahapedia isn`t an official source, but on their website they state this: "Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase, when a KASRKIN or MILITARUM TEMPESTUS unit from your army is selected to shoot. Until the end of the phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack with a hot-shot weapon, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any normal damage. A unit can only suffer a maximum of 6 mortal wounds per phase as a result of this Stratagem." They cap it at 6 which is interesting. Yes that's the current ruling. The issue people have with it is that this caps the wound at per target, so a single unit of Kasrkin is able to split fire and output 18 MWs on average across 3~4 units Whether this needs to be community-FAQed is the discussion at hand (whoops I was late by a second it seems) |
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Post by silverwhasp on Feb 15, 2023 9:02:31 GMT -5
I am very in favor is not changing the rules on this one, alot has to go right for the combo to work and can be mitigated. Yes one or more units will be deleted off the board per turn if the Kasrkin survive, but you have to adapt.
If it was a friendly tournament I would say cap it. Since this is more competitive, rules are rules, adapt or lose to be completely blunt. People have to take into consideration any combo. This would be for me THE tournament to not house rule anything.
That being said I won't be angry either way, just expressing my views on the subject. It just kinda feels bad to have my codex and my stratagems nerfed by the house when Guard has been eating it for awhile now. It`s like "every other codex got their moment and their OP stuff for a bit why not us?" Kinda feel.
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Post by silverwhasp on Feb 15, 2023 9:06:05 GMT -5
I know Wahapedia isn`t an official source, but on their website they state this: "Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase, when a KASRKIN or MILITARUM TEMPESTUS unit from your army is selected to shoot. Until the end of the phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack with a hot-shot weapon, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any normal damage. A unit can only suffer a maximum of 6 mortal wounds per phase as a result of this Stratagem." They cap it at 6 which is interesting. Yes that's the current ruling. The issue people have with it is that this caps the wound at per target, so a single unit of Kasrkin is able to split fire and output 18 MWs on average across 3~4 units Whether this needs to be community-FAQed is the discussion at hand (whoops I was late by a second it seems) Right! And to say I play Guard! XD |
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Post by raceygaming on Feb 15, 2023 9:58:37 GMT -5
I think that most people may have gotten a say in and the two main options that have emerged that do the minimal affects to the state of the game are :
1. Leave the interaction as is until a GW FAQ makes an official ruling, which if it occurs before the tournament would take effect.
2. Cap the MW to 6 for the shoot phase. You can still split fire for some combination of MW that adds up to 6 across multiple units or can still put all 6 MW on a single unit.
As it is Wednesday, does it seem reasonable to put these 2 options into an anonymous poll and give the community 24 hrs to vote on it and give the T.O the feel of the community.
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Post by harryf on Feb 15, 2023 10:15:03 GMT -5
I think that most people may have gotten a say in and the two main options that have emerged that do the minimal affects to the state of the game are : 1. Leave the interaction as is until a GW FAQ makes an official ruling, which if it occurs before the tournament would take effect. 2. Cap the MW to 6 for the shoot phase. You can still split fire for some combination of MW that adds up to 6 across multiple units or can still put all 6 MW on a single unit. As it is Wednesday, does it seem reasonable to put these 2 options into an anonymous poll and give the community 24 hrs to vote on it and give the T.O the feel of the community. I would also suggest that in the case of official GW FAQ coming out before saturday (as unlikely as that is), it should probably override what we choose, regardless of which option we vote for. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Feb 15, 2023 10:29:46 GMT -5
I am very in favor is not changing the rules on this one, alot has to go right for the combo to work and can be mitigated. Yes one or more units will be deleted off the board per turn if the Kasrkin survive, but you have to adapt. If it was a friendly tournament I would say cap it. Since this is more competitive, rules are rules, adapt or lose to be completely blunt. People have to take into consideration any combo. This would be for me THE tournament to not house rule anything. That being said I won't be angry either way, just expressing my views on the subject. It just kinda feels bad to have my codex and my stratagems nerfed by the house when Guard has been eating it for awhile now. It`s like "every other codex got their moment and their OP stuff for a bit why not us?" Kinda feel. It's not changing the unit, or the wording, or actually anything written in the codex. The wahapedia quote is correct - it is ALREADY capped at 6 mortals The issue is people are arguing that because of the specific wording on GW's language that it doesn't say that you can't split fire to three units and do 18 mortals total. It's not nerfing the codex, or a rule, or a unit, or anything else written. It's clarifying the wording to close the loop hole that SOME people are abusing. NOT everyone, just some people. That's why I'm not even proposing a change to the strats or the codex... just the interpretation of "can I get around the six mortal wounds cap by split firing" I cannot stress this enough, it's not changing anything to do with the strats or the wording in your codex, just closing the opportunity to circumvent the wound cap ALREADY present in the rules as written. EDIT: I added a poll to the first post - hopefully clear on the interpretation that we're looking for - can this unit circumvent the 6 mortal wound cap by using split firing. That's the question I need a community standard response on, to counter any issues which may come up with trying to make a snap ruling round three when two players do not agree. |
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Post by harryf on Feb 15, 2023 10:44:30 GMT -5
I will suggest though, that the intention to allow split fire is clear, and what we're doing here is attempting to determine whether that is fun/balanced/permissible for the purpose of this Tourney, rather than clarifying a oversight.
I think the intention for the wound cap is to prevent you from hosing a single unit with >6 MWs, rather than to stop you from producing more than 6 overall. Whether that's something that's too powerful for this tourney (like Adamantium Lance and rerollable 2++s in the past), that's what this thread is to discuss
The reason I say this is that in other cases inside the same new Guard codex, where split firing was not allowed to be used to circumvent the "downside" of something, this was clearly called out, such as the "Suppressing Fire" order (if 5 hits are landed on an enemy infantry unit, it gets -1 to hit, MAY ONLY TARGET THAT ENEMY UNIT), where it clearly disallows me firing all the Lasguns to suppress a unit, and turning my plasmas and meltas against something I'm actually trying to hurt.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Feb 15, 2023 10:55:59 GMT -5
we don't know the intention of GW at all... as we're not mind readers. Some people believe that it's as many mortals as you can split fire into, others believe that's not the way it works.
Otherwise why would any other place make a ruling (Ottawa for example is a far more competitive landscape than Kingston) if it was so clear?
If you think it's totally clear, intended and the way you want to play that, go vote that way. There are no wrong answers, and I honestly don't care either way, it's what all of you want to use for interpretation.
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Post by harryf on Feb 15, 2023 11:02:33 GMT -5
Just to be clear, I agree that it's probably too powerful, I just also think it's working as GW intended, its just that I think GW made a bad balance decision (as they have consistently done in the past) rather than an unclear decision. The Ottawa league ruling (not that it matters for the CC) was made on balance grounds.
I'm probably just being pointlessly pedantic here, I only brought it up because its being framed as a clarification rather than balance adjustment, but I suppose it ultimately doesn't REALLY matter in terms of how the games play out.
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