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Post by distractedcarnifex on Sept 7, 2023 13:19:32 GMT -5
My Intro Tourney Dark Angels list went down 40 points. My Week 1 League list went down 10 points.
The change to Devastating Wounds does reign in Aeldari, but I wonder about second and third order effects. Units that have MW-based FNP will now lack that against Devastating Wounds.
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Post by voodoo on Sept 7, 2023 13:44:47 GMT -5
The change to Devastating Wounds does reign in Aeldari, but I wonder about second and third order effects. Units that have MW-based FNP will now lack that against Devastating Wounds. lol, how exactly? The change only makes them slightly less effective against hordes of small models, but still equally as effective against vehicles and monsters... so... still amazingly good, just not vs. absolutely every unit in the game. Couple it up with the Wraithknight having a looer % point increase than the Tfex (which sucks in comparison)... GW really missed the boat, Aeldari are going to continue to dominate and this balance will do absolute nothing to change that. The Aeldari counters, of which there were few already, also got nerfed, so they're going to face a larger uphill struggle to reign in the "Aeldari menace" that GW has written. I've been trying to keep it out of the doom/gloom category, but this "balance" is just... I don't even have words really. It's just so disappointing that GW has it so incredibly wrong.
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ItsBird
Warrior
Pigeon, She/they
Posts: 183
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Post by ItsBird on Sept 7, 2023 15:22:25 GMT -5
almost everything in the sisters index went down we are a horde army now and we needed it. 115pts for immolators is very nice.
for csm some nice points drops and some justified increases. abbadon, forge fiends, MoP, and obliterators all went up a reasonable amount. I'm very happy to see points drops on vindicators, land raiders, and warp talons. both of my armies are just turning into tanks.
also dev wounds change is chefs kiss
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Sept 7, 2023 15:32:54 GMT -5
Got a chance to go over my Wolves and Marines in general and those changes also seem quite positive. My wolves list dropped to 1870 from 2000 so that gives me room to take one extra unit and/or an enhancement that I couldn't fit before.
General sentiment I've seen across discord/youtube is that most folks are incredibly happy with the changes, with exceptions among a couple factions (Cough Nids Cough). Through exactly where everyone is going to land with such enormous changes is obviously all theory and speculation at this point.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 7, 2023 15:53:40 GMT -5
Over at the Tyranid hive, people are straight out saying they're not buying the codex. We've had it leaked and it pretty much is just a worse version of the index with the exception of the vanguard detachment which seems pretty heavily pushed... now with the point increases (ripper swarms 60 points? WTF?) it is just too much salt for some people. (I'm a diehard though, they're my first army, I can't quit them)
for comparison:
3 ripper swarms 60 points - oc 0 T2 swarms with a 6+ save that can deep strike to do an action (their only value) 10 termagants 60 points - oc 2 T3 infantry, 5+ save, can regain models, S5 gun, can redeploy when an enemy gets close
like this is the same codex... in what world are those two units the same points?
or even better:
2 pyrovores 60 points - OC1 T6 3+ save, 4 wounds each with a D6+1 -1 AP twin linked ignore cover flamer that strips cover away from an enemy
or you know you can have three rippers instead.... lol
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Post by Typhus on Sept 7, 2023 16:08:50 GMT -5
To be fair, a single Ripper for 20 points is pretty solid.
I wish they'd borrow a page from... their own book (30k in this case) and make reinforced units less expensive on a per-model basis. That would be the one upside of 10th Edition's points-as-Power Level.
Rippers would look a lot better at 20/30/40 for 1/2/3. The second and third Ripper base add next to nothing to the unit (or even detract from its usefulness).
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Post by mrmanstory on Sept 7, 2023 16:22:51 GMT -5
I really like the death guard changes. I really like the play style of being a debuff army with plagues following them everywhere they go that gets stronger over time. Would I like a bit more durability? Yeah probably but honestly I think the change they implemented was pretty thematic honestly.
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Post by distractedcarnifex on Sept 7, 2023 16:52:23 GMT -5
The change to Devastating Wounds does reign in Aeldari, but I wonder about second and third order effects. Units that have MW-based FNP will now lack that against Devastating Wounds. lol, how exactly? The change only makes them slightly less effective against hordes of small models, but still equally as effective against vehicles and monsters... so... still amazingly good, just not vs. absolutely every unit in the game. Couple it up with the Wraithknight having a looer % point increase than the Tfex (which sucks in comparison)... GW really missed the boat, Aeldari are going to continue to dominate and this balance will do absolute nothing to change that. The Aeldari counters, of which there were few already, also got nerfed, so they're going to face a larger uphill struggle to reign in the "Aeldari menace" that GW has written. I've been trying to keep it out of the doom/gloom category, but this "balance" is just... I don't even have words really. It's just so disappointing that GW has it so incredibly wrong. Before this, a Wraithknight could pick up whole squads. Now it is really good at killing Monsters/Vehicles etc. My post was about the overall change to Devastating Wounds, but if you want to go after me in your frustration I guess fill your boots? I would have rather they removed the Fate Dice interaction, but this still helps. I agree, though, that they did not go as far as required Aeldari as a faction. But since we are not on the rules team I guess we need to build a bridge and get over it in terms of taking out our frustrations on each other. Cheers
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 7, 2023 17:47:32 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly agree the change to devastating wounds is very good. Spilling over onto other squads was a big downside and I don't think that anyone is going to miss it. It's one thing to lose a few gaunts, but when you're picking up a squad of expensive elite models just because that wraithknight got to use a 6 on fate dice, that's a BIG deal.
I think the overall core changes in this balance sheet are extremely welcome, and as a T.O. I am super glad they did this because it's taking away some "feel bad" that people can experience playing the game.
I also like the majority of what they changed point wise and across armies. I think Votann will have a new lease on life, sisters have something to be pretty happy about, and it'll be really interesting to see what happens with death guard with this new adaptive rule thing they have. (I really enjoyed it when nids had it in 9th).
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Post by Hippocampus Expert on Sept 7, 2023 17:55:50 GMT -5
I'm kind of annoyed that buying a subscription for the battleforge doesn't unlock the entire app. Come on James
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Post by nekekami on Sept 7, 2023 18:57:55 GMT -5
I also like the majority of what they changed point wise and across armies. I think Votann will have a new lease on life, sisters have something to be pretty happy about, and it'll be really interesting to see what happens with death guard with this new adaptive rule thing they have. (I really enjoyed it when nids had it in 9th). Votann players are melting down at being a horde army with no actual hordes to field. Like, unless you want to deploy like 60 kyn or something, most lists being played in 10th are only squeezing in another unit of Hearthguard. They didn't fix the characters (looking at you Brokyr), they didn't adjust weapon ranges - so still the slowest army with the shortest ranges, and not enough transport options to reliably move anything. All for what? A few extra JT at the start of the game. Also, before anyone rages about Tyranid pre-release points changes, remember that the Votann codex had rules changes and points hikes before it dropped. Votann are the hipsters of codex nerfs before release.
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Post by trantos01 on Sept 7, 2023 19:10:01 GMT -5
I am....unimpressed with their choice for the Leagues. Because they either don't want to actually address the issue of why the currently sucks or want to turn what used to be an elite army into the Xeno equivalent of the Guard with a bit of marine sprinkling etc. Changing the detachment to give a total of 8 JTs spread over four units? That's great since with the nerfed system it would take eight turns for a Kahl to generate that much (discounting dead units of course). But it's saying that the Leagues don't have the accuracy, weight of fire and/or attack strength to deal with an opponent without this crutch. This 'works' while it's just the index in play but what happens when you release the codex? Because it's been decided that the dwarves need eight turns of pre-game JT application in order to have a chance in hell of surviving/winning. And the other detachments are going to have different mechanics (losing all those free JT) so you're back to square one.
And Shannon? It actually wasn't the T.C'Tan that got hit with the biggest nerf bat with a 20 point increase. That 'honor' goes to the Doomsday Arks at a 25 point hike. In fact all the Necron anti-tank got an increase (dommstalkers 10 and heavy destroyers 5).
On the other hand Szeras got 35 points cheaper along with warriors going to 11 from 12 which balances out the +10 for the Reanimator. So GW is saying make to Silver Tide lists containing tons and tons of impossible to kill warriors for the sole purpose of driving your opponent insane.
As for the 0CP trick only being Battle Tactic Stratagems, it means the Overlord can only do Hungry Void (+ Strength and AP), Conquering Tyrant (re-roll shooting wounds), Command reroll and Go to Ground (gain +6 invul for rest of shooting phase). Nerf though still useful.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 7, 2023 21:40:57 GMT -5
I also like the majority of what they changed point wise and across armies. I think Votann will have a new lease on life, sisters have something to be pretty happy about, and it'll be really interesting to see what happens with death guard with this new adaptive rule thing they have. (I really enjoyed it when nids had it in 9th). Votann players are melting down at being a horde army with no actual hordes to field. Like, unless you want to deploy like 60 kyn or something, most lists being played in 10th are only squeezing in another unit of Hearthguard. They didn't fix the characters (looking at you Brokyr), they didn't adjust weapon ranges - so still the slowest army with the shortest ranges, and not enough transport options to reliably move anything. All for what? A few extra JT at the start of the game. Also, before anyone rages about Tyranid pre-release points changes, remember that the Votann codex had rules changes and points hikes before it dropped. Votann are the hipsters of codex nerfs before release. Point reductions across the board and quadruple the JT to start isn't something to be happy about?
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Post by nekekami on Sept 7, 2023 23:20:14 GMT -5
Not when stacked up against all the other glaring problems that could be addressed. I doubt we'll see an appreciable bump in Votann winrates with these adjustments at all.
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Post by raceygaming on Sept 8, 2023 5:18:16 GMT -5
Not when stacked up against all the other glaring problems that could be addressed. I doubt we'll see an appreciable bump in Votann winrates with these adjustments at all. I do agree it is not very elegant but there might be some players that can make it work. I was thinking that JT would give a +1 BS not +1 to hit so it could stack with heavy and such would have helped a fair bit too.
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