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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Feb 21, 2013 13:24:04 GMT -5
most big tournies in the states are actually 2k
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Post by voodoo on Feb 21, 2013 14:22:06 GMT -5
I can see the arguments for both sides, but; instead of reducing army size, why not have a 10 minute “mission time” before the first turn? Games would then be 2 hrs 10 minutes long which would only add 30 min to the day. Heck, it could be 5 minutes mission time because if you don’t have to be concerned with setting up 70 zombies on the table (or however many troops you’ve brought) that 5-10 minutes discussing the mission will be 100% focused on mission learning only.
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Post by empirearmy on Feb 21, 2013 15:29:10 GMT -5
Shannon
I agree with with you. However, on most podcasts the suggested total is 1500 points. All I am saying is that around the world its pretty normal to play 1500.
People want to play 2000 points because that's what they play every Saturday, and they are comfortable with it. No one likes to leave their comfort zone, thats why we as gamers worry when rules change. LOL
Here in Kingston you guys play 2400 points in Fantasy. Thats the standard you set here. But it is also the only place I have ever seen that plays that point level. In Alberta the standard was 2000 now its 2500 In Gemrany for the longest time is was 2000 now its 2500 IN the UK and at the last warhammer world tourny it was 2000 even in Cyprus it was 2000 when I was there.
All I am saying is that if you changed the point total you may get some different ideas and some more people able to play.
There are two tournys in Barrie coming up in the next month. One has over 30 people already signed up. its 1500 points. The other one has about the same amount of people and it is a 1000 point tourny.
Could I suggest running an invite only tourny of maybe 10 people and see how it goes at 1500 points. I would volunteer to help if it makes a difference.
Mike
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Post by nsc on Feb 21, 2013 15:36:47 GMT -5
I wouldn't cut the points below 1500 (it gets really bad imo trying to cram in things below this mark, heck even at 1500 things are pretty tough) and I feel the sweet spot lies between 1500-1850 but I understand that 2000 is a lot of fun since you don't really have to think about what you put in your list (you can just take everything!).
But when some armies (nids, orks, some tau lists, chaos with zombies or mass cultists) hit 2000 points the model count can really hurt some players and limit their turns severely, throw on top of that some missions take awhile to read and get used to and there's a lot of pressure to read quickly and miss nuances in the missions and even forget mission special rules, especially if your opponent isn't a strong player or isn't used to moving 100+ models in the 10 minute "turn" they get (assuming 5 turn game, that's an even division between deployment and each player turn) you won't be reaching turn 5.
2 hours and 2000 points is really easy if say you're playing marines or an elite army, but there are some lists that can't do that.
I'm supporting fritz because I believe it would be a better tournament if there was more time for everyone, and since the biggest arguments for 2000 points is "I can take all my long fangs and thunderwolf cavalry" or "I can fit in this landraider and these terminators + bikers" etc, I'm more sympathetic to the people trying to resolve 40+ attacks against an ambull before the game starts after they deployed 80+ models.
Voodoo's idea is also very good, with a 5 or 10 minute dedicated reading time (I'm sure temple of doom players would appreciate it)
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Post by harryf on Feb 21, 2013 15:45:49 GMT -5
my vote is on 1500 this way we can have more time in between games, get more turns in, and for some people, maybe have the chance to start a new army
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Post by Hizack on Feb 21, 2013 17:09:34 GMT -5
I think the reason why we play 2000 points is because when we were first playing 1850 point games in 6th edition the games went by so much faster then in 5th. Which is why we bumped up to 2000. I mean normal games we play on the weekend take about 2-2.5 hours per game and those are quite casual. When we played the 1850 point games I think we were done in an hour to hour and a half on average.
Some food for thought there.
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Post by minmuffin on Feb 21, 2013 17:21:45 GMT -5
here is the problem with lowering the points mission have to change you cant play all the missions that we played at the turny even in treton some of us played at it was 1000 pts each and the lates turn we got to was 4 and some of the missions were desighed a bit wrong at 1000 points you cant really get the options that you need for game that are objective heavy. try killing a baneblade with 1500 pts then your opp
and 1 year people know about painting and building an army ive play testted my army for 1y and half.
i had my necrons painted in a month for last years turny board and all and got good points both years
im sorry to say a stratgy for shoot armys is to take more miatures and take more time in everything they only need to out shoot you to win but with shannons most of the mission you cant do that you need a bounch of differnt units to win
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Post by thesanityassassin on Feb 21, 2013 17:27:28 GMT -5
When I used to run events here I had a Guard player blow up a land raider, then spend like an hour moving his models back and forth one model at a time. Two turns of that and the game was over, massacre for him as his Khorne opponent couldn't get to combat.
Moral of the story is that the Khorne player never called me to the table to point out what was going on. If he had have I would have very quickly remedied the situation in one manner or another. So basically, if you feel you're running out of time because of an opponent, you need to get the TO over there ASAP. Trust me that a good TO will watch the Sportsmanship scores from that table very closely afterwards as well if you're worried about being chipmunked for calling someone on slow-play.
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Post by voodoo on Feb 21, 2013 17:33:48 GMT -5
I apologize if my movement of zombie blocks was slow, I'm seriously considering a movement tray.
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Post by nsc on Feb 21, 2013 21:32:02 GMT -5
Don't be, you've been gone from the game for awhile and you still weren't that slow, I'm sure most of your games were 5+ turns anyways. As I recall you had a decent setup time too, your movement time was fine and it will only get quicker the more games you get in. However a movement tray would definitely be good since you'd always be in max coherency and couldn't be punished by small blast templates
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Feb 21, 2013 21:44:41 GMT -5
Connor had probably one of the most model intensive armies (90 ork boys alone) but he seemed to be able to get his games rolling along fairly quickly... after a while of playing horde armies you get used to moving quickly and know how many sets of dice you have to roll fairly easily... the key with horde armies is to get practice games in so you can get used to it... ... also on Saturdays people aren't playing at a tourney pace... even at the tourney, I saw people standing around, talking about random stuff either at the beginning of the game (after people were supposed to get going) or halfway through... a tourney pace involves getting your turns done quickly.. there's really no excuse for not being able to get past turn three in two hours... how complicated is your army if it's taking you 20 minutes per turn?
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 21, 2013 13:15:48 GMT -5
So I've been reading a bit about NOVA (really big GT in the States) over on the Whiskey & 40K Blog and it was interesting what they were saying about seeding, win-path and bracketting for tournaments, and how it encouraged sportsmanship and a fun but challenging experience...
so they have like 6 brackets of 16 at NOVA... because they're huge an all...
but I was thinking we could fit 32 in Nexus at our big tourney (and from the growth from year one it's a pretty safe bet we'll hit max this year)... so that would be two brackets of 16....
so here's how it would work...
Day One - you play pretty much as normal, seeded against those who've a same win record as you... at the end of Day one the group is split into two groups of 16... the top 16 scores are bracket one... the bottom are bracket two...
Day Two - your score is reset to zero... first day was for seeding only... now you're playing games against those with a similar record as you... so if your dice just said no to you day one, you're not out.... competition starts anew... (sorry can't help bad luck two days running!)
So there is a best army award, and a best general and best overall for each bracket... so FIVE awards instead of three...
This allows the hard core competive players kicking butt and taking names day one to play against each other day two... and those who brought more friendly lists (or who's dice just simply hated them!) to play those of similar record and still have a chance to be hitting a top prize...
Pros:
more winners
a bad couple of games doesn't screw you out of the top spots
Cons:
might be weird to organize on day two but I'm sure there's a way to do it
some may perceive bracket two as a "lesser" award than in bracket one (which isn't the case, but still...)
as always, just putting ideas out there for making this even better next year.... all feedback is greatly appreciated...
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 21, 2013 13:17:02 GMT -5
also... NOVA this year is trying eight games.... which is pretty crazy... (and I'm not suggested we do that!)
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Post by danydaigle24 on Mar 21, 2013 13:43:30 GMT -5
I dont know I tend to say that people in bracket two wont care anyways about trophee usually because they are there to have fun and brought friendly list...
I know personally I wouldnt feel proud of having a trophee if I was in bracket two because I know Im not a real winner....
Also I dont think we have issue with people bringing supercrazy list...
I have to say there is one thing I love about the Quebec tournament is that you had to judge 5 pts for your oponnent army themed and also at the end of each day you had to place your game in order wich one you liked the most. At the end of the tournament you have also to give your favorite game of all... All those points were added to your Best Overall scores + painting so at the end the guy that win Best Overall was not the one that win the most game because he had a better painting and more points for sportsman and army theme...
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Post by nsc on Mar 21, 2013 14:38:48 GMT -5
also... NOVA this year is trying eight games.... which is pretty crazy... (and I'm not suggested we do that!) 8 Rounds . . . 1850 Points Over the course of 3 days. GTs are a big deal involving travel, lodging and time off work. 6 games for a local tourney is a lot for the organizer and venue to handle, and 3 days is too long for something local (unless you decide you want a GRAND CHAMPIONSHIP over the course of two weekends for 12 games, that'd be sweet!) I don't think you need two brackets and five trophies because prizes are raffled at the end, so no matter how the dice go you're in contention for prizes.
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