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Post by LizardTau on Jun 4, 2018 9:41:23 GMT -5
Bobby g have an aura that helps all imperium and works better for ultra marines I believe as I don't use him or have his rules with me.
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Post by raceygaming on Jun 4, 2018 9:55:49 GMT -5
9 little knights would be pretty scary to deal with for an army that doesn't have a high volume of anti-tank (while Drukhari of course would gladly decimate it of course with a flurry of dark lances) plus 12 CP for three superheavy detachments is nothing to sneeze at either. I'm not 100% sure but in the TTT bat rep they mentioned in the army list section that if you don't take at least 3 of 2 types of the bigger knights in a super-heavy detachment then the command point bonus from that detachment becomes +0 instead of +3. They may of cut-off Armiger spam at the source before it happened with that restriction. I agree that the double-wounds-for-brackets will be very popular, through some of the other house rules have some serious potential to mix-n-match via the super-heavy-aux to drop a Knight into another imperial army like Marines. Yes I believe they stated for the Knight codex to generate CP you have to have 3 big guys, so little guy spam isn't going to be crazy strong without support. Where they will pick up is like 6 of them backing up a sisters or guard force. 900 pts of CC knightlets with their 14" move and then 1100 pts of guard / sister gun line to hammer home the support. |
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Post by trantos01 on Jun 4, 2018 10:08:24 GMT -5
My question is how in the heck are generalist lists expected to deal with pure Knight groups when they start showing up?
For example most lists that I run into on Saturdays have two or three dedicated anti-tank units. All the knights need to do is focus fire on said forces for the first one or two turns and it's over. Because strength four and three weaponry with minimal AP isn't really going to do much against them.
Sure it's possible to nickle and dime Knights to death with infantry weapons but it's a bit harder when they're charging in to stomp you to death.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jun 4, 2018 10:17:44 GMT -5
And this hits the crux of why there were calls to ban them in 7th.
At least in 8th infantry weapons *can* hurt them, though not with any real effectiveness.
I'll hold judgement until I see them on the table a bit, but given that pure Knights will almost always get +1 to the first turn roll, and have plenty of shooting that can remove several squads in a turn, it could quickly snowball against them.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 4, 2018 11:42:33 GMT -5
My question is how in the heck are generalist lists expected to deal with pure Knight groups when they start showing up? For example most lists that I run into on Saturdays have two or three dedicated anti-tank units. All the knights need to do is focus fire on said forces for the first one or two turns and it's over. Because strength four and three weaponry with minimal AP isn't really going to do much against them. Sure it's possible to nickle and dime Knights to death with infantry weapons but it's a bit harder when they're charging in to stomp you to death. The first time knights were released, several people stopped playing 40k altogether, stating this as the reason, basically putting LOW's into regular 40k instead of sticking to apoc where they always were before.
However APOC was dying and a dead end sales wise for GW. Only a small percentage of 40k players even participate in apoc, and these big kits cost a lot to produce, and if they only way they sold was to this smaller percentage, then you have to deal in forge world numbers for sales, which frankly is often not worth it. (as we've seen very recently, entire ranges are now being discontinued from FW because their molds need replacing and it's just not worth it financially).
So the introduction of Lords of War into 40k made a huge new revenue stream for GW, allowed them to sell these big expensive plastic kits. So the APOC players still got their big stompy robot monsters and so did the rest of us.
Problem is, GW has zero ability to balance the knights in proportion to the rest of the armies, and the pendulum swings back and forth to extremes. It's because they don't function like other armies, and are largely immune to many armies completely. This happened in 7th and there were widespread calls to ban them... then the game changed and the power escalation happened full tilt (see Eldar 7th edition codex) and now the knights could be dealt with by some armies rather easily. This caused knights to fall off of big tournies as now they could be dealt with. However these top armies who had the tools to dispatch knights, also could now dominate everyone else who wasn't knight tier as well!
Enter 8th edition where GW realized this approach didn't work (too easy to kill or too dominant) so they decided to go the more toned down version in the index books. Unfortunately however, this made knights largely irrelevant as a stand alone force and more easy to deal with for any army who wasn't GSC. So the most you saw of them was 1 in an imperium army for the most part.
The new knight book has the huge task of making knights viable as a stand alone force... AND.... balanced within all of the forces who exist on the table. So they have to basically be on par with everyone else but not unstoppable.
Can they do it? sure if it's pure knights, I think they can. They've been doing some amazing stuff since 8th dropped (sorry grey knights - custodes are just better than you for no reason)
Here's the problem. It won't be pure knights. ever. The cheapo guard CP farm battalion is so easily inserted into a list, with any support elements you want to add. Pure knights has weaknesses to try and exploit so that you can try to win the objective game (often barely surviving in the process). If those weaknesses are gone, I'm not sure why they wouldn't dominate - unless the points are fairly done to make them powerful but costly.
Remains to be seen, but I've always viewed knights as one of those ideas GW had but didn't quite know how to balance. I'm anxious to see if they can do it this time.
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Post by cmcd on Jun 4, 2018 14:37:40 GMT -5
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Post by cmcd on Jun 4, 2018 14:48:49 GMT -5
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jun 4, 2018 15:01:25 GMT -5
Mark my words, GW wants this Guard CP battery to become a huge problem, sell a bunch of Cadians, then they'll drop the next FAQ and say that CP can only be used for strategems from the faction that generated it.
Create a problem, implement a preplanned fix, garner praise from the community...
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Post by LizardTau on Jun 4, 2018 15:11:52 GMT -5
You forgot the sell models and profit stages but yep.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 7, 2018 6:24:16 GMT -5
"The volcano lance i'm pretty sure is a close combat weapon.... Range... 80 inches?!? That's not a close combat weapon... that's a gun... Why did I take the harpoon?... Oh str 16 on the Harpoon. That Fire Warrior is DEAD!" I lol'ed so hard |
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Post by raceygaming on Jun 7, 2018 7:36:33 GMT -5
From the Codex reviews I have seen. I think Knights are in a good place, but nothing like they were when armour values were around. You are looking at a list that will have some where in the range of 100-124 T 7/8 Wounds on 3+, which at 2000 pts is pretty easy for guard tank lines to get close to if they run 9 Russ and then still have 700 pts of other stuff.
I'm interested to see if they can get any traction as a lot of the armies have started to move away from the big guys like mangus and morty. We will have to wait and see how it all shakes out.
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Post by voodoo on Jun 7, 2018 8:42:13 GMT -5
I'm okay with that comparison Jordan and thanks for putting it up. I feel like that amount of wounds coupled with the increased durability from Ion Shields as well as a better WS&BS makes sense.
I'm excited; I feel like knights will be strong but hopefully not stupidly so. The addition of the knightly houses is going to add a bunch of fluff as will the new house specific relics. Count me properly stoked!
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Post by question on Jun 7, 2018 12:41:10 GMT -5
So am I! (What? How many armies do you have? THAT MANY! And how many unbuilt / unpainted kits? THAT MANY!) All while I finish building my first Armiger at my desk at work. To make it worse, I think I'm losing the argument with myself.
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Post by LizardTau on Jun 7, 2018 12:46:40 GMT -5
Well if you have to loose an argument at least it's to your self.
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Post by voodoo on Jun 7, 2018 13:02:19 GMT -5
But CHris, if you have the Armigers then you already have a knight army... you just need the book to go with it; only makes sense really.
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