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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Dec 15, 2020 13:39:27 GMT -5
Everyone: OMG Death Guard with T5 W2/3 and 5+++ is gunna be INSANE! No one will be able to deal with it! It's so obvious!
GW: Hey guys, there's a lot of talk on the internet that Death Guard are gunna be insane once they get the W2 buff. Should we do something about that?
GW Balance Team: Yeah... we should probably nerf that or something...
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Post by voodoo on Dec 15, 2020 13:56:44 GMT -5
The -1 damage makes sense to me. It really sucks, but that's from the current lens of "Plague Marines have 1 wound and Termies have 2." It will still take a good deal of punishment to put them down, but things like rocket launchers, melta, lascannons, etc. are going to be thematically useful.
After all, a weapon that can punch a hole in an armored tank SHOULD have the stopping power to kill a living breathing body, or at least make them think twice about their life choices. Weight of firepower will still drag them down, no different than Thousand Sons, and several of the more durable units out there.
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Post by Khalai on Dec 15, 2020 19:37:21 GMT -5
The -1 damage makes sense to me. It really sucks, but that's from the current lens of "Plague Marines have 1 wound and Termies have 2." It will still take a good deal of punishment to put them down, but things like rocket launchers, melta, lascannons, etc. are going to be thematically useful. After all, a weapon that can punch a hole in an armored tank SHOULD have the stopping power to kill a living breathing body, or at least make them think twice about their life choices. Weight of firepower will still drag them down, no different than Thousand Sons, and several of the more durable units out there. It gets better. If they're using their anti tank on your plague marines... well... that's a pretty big win for your plagueburst crawlers etc. |
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Post by Typhus on Dec 16, 2020 0:03:46 GMT -5
That Goonhammer article is presented in a pretty disingenuous manner - doesnt mention mortal wounds, breezes past D1 weapons, and seems to argue that Plague Marines are going to be more durable against D3 (even though they're going to get killed in one hit every single time). The lore is that Death Guard shrug off all but the most traumatic damage, yet Disgustingly Resilient has literally no effect against the least traumatic damage. New Disgustingly Resilient is worse against almost every single damage characteristic, for almost every single profile. Attachments:
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Post by raceygaming on Dec 16, 2020 8:28:22 GMT -5
I see what happened on the chart showing a lot of red when the DR is fully isolated. If 100 wounds get to your DR then you are probably in trouble any way when you start to apply that to real situations it does feel right for game balance.
100 S4 -1 shots are still on average only killing 5-6 plague marines (66 hits, 22 wounds, 11 unsaved) even tho they failed 100 of the DR since it didnt effect the 1 damage it isn't that painful to take.
I do think with the wide range of damage 2 and also damage d3 weapons (only 33% lethal to 2W models) they are showing it's less of a loss then people thought it was.
But I will agree that the math presented does show that it is a nerf, which was probably needed to keep the balance.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Dec 16, 2020 10:17:07 GMT -5
But I will agree that the math presented does show that it is a nerf, which was probably needed to keep the balance. This is the key, Death Guard were already "tough enough" and were one of the premier durability armies in the game. So this isn't really a "nerf", it's a rebalance to speed up the game and reduce player frustration when players would high-roll their DR and block like 4 of 5 damage or something crazy. You're still just as tough as before (mathematically) on average. You just can't high roll into near invincibility. It's a feels-bad moment for death guard players, but once you get your meat-mitts on a dex and you get a few games in, I think it'll play fine tbh. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 16, 2020 10:28:03 GMT -5
Death guard currently are incredibly good. rebalancing them is not a bad thing. Plus we haven't seen the rest of the codex.
Is DR worse? yeah probably. Or maybe. Or who knows because we haven't seen the rest of the book. Seems like when people are doing math they are getting different results. Not that I trust Goonhammer more than Typhus or Typhus more than goonhammer. I honestly don't know what the actual result would be. Look at necrons when you look at the previews vs. what the final product was. command protocols looked busted (they turned out to be garbage) and reanimation looked worse (turned out to be great).
Wait for the final product. even if they took disgustingly resilient completely away from death guard they'd still be really good. -1 damage from all weapons is not a bad ability at all. I take it as my warlord trait for my lord of change every single time. is it all plague marines get double wounds and an extra attack AND a 5++ fnp... no... but that was bonkers and you'd have to crank their points up pretty high to compensate. Now they're tougher primaris who take one less damage from all attacks and have way better upgrades. How is that not a good unit?
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Post by voodoo on Dec 16, 2020 10:48:26 GMT -5
It is good; it's REALLY good. For Plague Marines. I feel like the rub is coming from all of the OTHER units that used to benefit from DR that no longer will.
Looking at it honestly, something had to change. You can't have Daemon engines hitting on 3's now and ALSO having DR without a significant point hike. So instead of removing models from people's lists, (because money) GW changed a core dynamic in the army. Daemon engines still have an invul save, so do terminators and MANY other units.
I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic that there will still be some good synergy in the army and some fancy new tricks that we're just not able to see because we're only staring at little tiny snippets.
Gaining wounds, attacks, better BS on a bunch of units, etc. etc. etc. this all adds up to a LOT more damage output, So instead of relying on one or two units in your whole army to carry the weight, we'll hopefully see DG go from a "I struggle to kill you, but I just don't die" army to a more balanced playstyle.
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Post by raceygaming on Dec 16, 2020 13:18:03 GMT -5
I'm expecting to see 2-3 out of 20 armies at Clubs being Death Guard; They have a new codex, they play missions well, they have a solid newer model range and they have really good model details in terms of getting a good paint score. I think them and well tuned marines will be some of the big bads.
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Post by voodoo on Dec 16, 2020 13:21:15 GMT -5
I'm expecting to see 2-3 out of 20 armies at Clubs being Death Guard; They have a new codex, they play missions well, they have a solid newer model range and they have really good model details in terms of getting a good paint score. I think them and well tuned marines will be some of the big bads. Crons with Nightbringer. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 16, 2020 14:06:19 GMT -5
nightbringer is good... but he's still very, very killable...
plus transhuman exists (now he's wounding on 4+) and primaris marines are everywhere. 1CP to make your big nasty be tarpitted by this troop unit? sure thing.
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Post by Khalai on Dec 16, 2020 20:04:51 GMT -5
Crons with Nightbringer are still not marines. Marines are just that much better end of story.
DR needed to change. I don't want to play with 35 point W2 plague marines.
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Post by raceygaming on Dec 16, 2020 22:18:34 GMT -5
I'm expecting to see 2-3 out of 20 armies at Clubs being Death Guard; They have a new codex, they play missions well, they have a solid newer model range and they have really good model details in terms of getting a good paint score. I think them and well tuned marines will be some of the big bads. Crons with Nightbringer. I'd be happy to see 1-2 crons this year. I do think that the codex armies will have a bit of an edge, will be interesting to see if dark eldar will be out earily enough to see them get in on it. I think with some tweaks they could be really strong. |
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Post by voodoo on Jan 11, 2021 10:34:01 GMT -5
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 11, 2021 10:42:15 GMT -5
oh man... everything looks super tough for this faction - which was already at the top of the heap BEFORE this update!
is going to be rough!
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