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Post by lightcavalier on Jul 21, 2021 4:25:36 GMT -5
So I stumbled across a scan of the new codex
My big question....did I miss a rule that helps ork leadership?
Mob rule just makes mobs under half strength count as not under half strength if within 6" of another mob over half strength.
Because with a predominant leadership stat of 6 (or 7 w a nob) any abilities that muck w leadership are going to be a pain
I guess I'm happy I learned hard into phantasm grenade launchers....
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Post by raceygaming on Jul 21, 2021 8:25:40 GMT -5
So I stumbled across a scan of the new codex My big question....did I miss a rule that helps ork leadership? Mob rule just makes mobs under half strength count as not under half strength if within 6" of another mob over half strength. Because with a predominant leadership stat of 6 (or 7 w a nob) any abilities that muck w leadership are going to be a pain I guess I'm happy I learned hard into phantasm grenade launchers.... Ya orks lost almost all of the leadership affects they had. No longer any bonuses for numbers of models, the ability to take mortal wounds to auto pass is a strat so can only save 1 unit. Orks also lost extra attacks for being in big units while taking all the negative of blast and coherency. I dont know if it was intentionally but I think they are trying to stop orks or any one else from bring 180 models at 2000 pts. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 21, 2021 8:50:47 GMT -5
So I stumbled across a scan of the new codex I dont know if it was intentionally but I think they are trying to stop orks or any one else from bring 180 models at 2000 pts. my guess is that might have been intentional.... |
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Post by lightcavalier on Jul 21, 2021 8:53:51 GMT -5
So I stumbled across a scan of the new codex My big question....did I miss a rule that helps ork leadership? Mob rule just makes mobs under half strength count as not under half strength if within 6" of another mob over half strength. Because with a predominant leadership stat of 6 (or 7 w a nob) any abilities that muck w leadership are going to be a pain I guess I'm happy I learned hard into phantasm grenade launchers.... Ya orks lost almost all of the leadership affects they had. No longer any bonuses for numbers of models, the ability to take mortal wounds to auto pass is a strat so can only save 1 unit. Orks also lost extra attacks for being in big units while taking all the negative of blast and coherency. I dont know if it was intentionally but I think they are trying to stop orks or any one else from bring 180 models at 2000 pts. Yeah I was looking at my Poison Tongue/Dark Creed realspace raid and evaluating the impact the following would have on Ld 6/7 models -3 Ld bubbles, +2 combat attrition modifiers (1 for killing a model w poison, 1 for Dark Creed bubble), Mortal wounds from PGLs and fight last from Tormentors |
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jul 21, 2021 9:33:56 GMT -5
Ya orks lost almost all of the leadership affects they had. No longer any bonuses for numbers of models, the ability to take mortal wounds to auto pass is a strat so can only save 1 unit. Orks also lost extra attacks for being in big units while taking all the negative of blast and coherency. I dont know if it was intentionally but I think they are trying to stop orks or any one else from bring 180 models at 2000 pts. Yeah I was looking at my Poison Tongue/Dark Creed realspace raid and evaluating the impact the following would have on Ld 6/7 models -3 Ld bubbles, +2 combat attrition modifiers (1 for killing a model w poison, 1 for Dark Creed bubble), Mortal wounds from PGLs and fight last from Tormentors Drukhari's leadership-based abilities would have essentially-fearless Space Marines shaking in their boots, so to say they would be effective against Orks in a vaccum like this is rather unfair. You're talking about pairing the army whose entirely specialty they've devoted points and traits and abilities to making work, to the army whose playstyle has just been changed from the core-out and in exchange for the immense buffs and improvements they've received, got a minor weakness in that they are more likely to fail morale-checks or suffer from morale. Ork players have essentially been allowed to completely ignore the morale phase for multiple-editions here, so just even introducing "oh yeah you gotta think about morale now" is a major change for ork players, let alone the dozens of other changes they are trying to make sense of atm They are 100% restructuring Orks from the ground up here. It's pretty clear the "old standby" of take 3x30 Boys + Warboss to start any list is what they wanted people to actually think about before doing. Taking 6x10 Boyz is actually viable now for example, because you mitigate your blast/morale issues significantly, have more units to do actions, and the new Mob Rule fixes your small-units from dying to leadership as long as you have several units working together and supporting each other. Ork players are going to suffer some near-blindness-inducing-rage while adapting to and understanding how to list build with this codex, because it's SO fundamentally different than anything printed for that faction for nearly a decade. But once you actually read the rules without any "well I used to do _____" bias, you realize just how good this dex is. Orks have changed MASSIVELY. But in my opinion, they are more ork-like than ever before, you just need to drop your pre-conceited notions of "what does an Ork army look like" and you'll start to see it. |
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Post by lightcavalier on Jul 21, 2021 9:52:03 GMT -5
Yeah I was looking at my Poison Tongue/Dark Creed realspace raid and evaluating the impact the following would have on Ld 6/7 models -3 Ld bubbles, +2 combat attrition modifiers (1 for killing a model w poison, 1 for Dark Creed bubble), Mortal wounds from PGLs and fight last from Tormentors Drukhari's leadership-based abilities would have essentially-fearless Space Marines shaking in their boots, so to say they would be effective against Orks in a vaccum like this is rather unfair. You're talking about pairing the army whose entirely specialty they've devoted points and traits and abilities to making work, to the army whose playstyle has just been changed from the core-out and in exchange for the immense buffs and improvements they've received, got a minor weakness in that they are more likely to fail morale-checks or suffer from morale. Ork players have essentially been allowed to completely ignore the morale phase for multiple-editions here, so just even introducing "oh yeah you gotta think about morale now" is a major change for ork players, let alone the dozens of other changes they are trying to make sense of atm They are 100% restructuring Orks from the ground up here. It's pretty clear the "old standby" of take 3x30 Boys + Warboss to start any list is what they wanted people to actually think about before doing. Taking 6x10 Boyz is actually viable now for example, because you mitigate your blast/morale issues significantly, have more units to do actions, and the new Mob Rule fixes your small-units from dying to leadership as long as you have several units working together and supporting each other. Ork players are going to suffer some near-blindness-inducing-rage while adapting to and understanding how to list build with this codex, because it's SO fundamentally different than anything printed for that faction for nearly a decade. But once you actually read the rules without any "well I used to do _____" bias, you realize just how good this dex is. Orks have changed MASSIVELY. But in my opinion, they are more ork-like than ever before, you just need to drop your pre-conceited notions of "what does an Ork army look like" and you'll start to see it. I was more looking in amusement at how the changes to orks fell into an interesting vulnerability to a very particuliar list that I like to play with. I totally agree the new codex seems alot more "orky" than in the past, and I like pretty much everything I have seen. I just thought it was interesting that after years of basically being de-facto Ld 10 that they only gave them a benefit against combat attrition instead of to leadership. Its going to be a fun ride, and I am excited for the Ork players....because theyve deserved to have fun quirky orks for so long now. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 21, 2021 10:56:53 GMT -5
I think as well they've been trying to make leadership debuff armies (drukhari and night lords for example) actually be able to function. When alot of armies (space marines, orks, tyranids, necrons, certain daemon builds) have been able to completely ignore that phase of the game it meant that it didn't really matter at all. Why even have a morale phase if more than half the armies in the game ignore the mechanic?
However, morale is also MUCH less punishing now. Those same orks who failed a leadership are likely only losing models on 1's, so in a 3 man squad who's failed leadership (so lost 5-10) might lose 3-4 more? That's certainly not nearly as punishing as old morale.
Plus with an army of T5 boyz, having that withering bolter fire of old really doesn't translate to as many kills as previous when you're wounding on 5's with almost all small arms fire. So you may be overall less vulnerable than you think to most armies.
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Post by raceygaming on Jul 21, 2021 11:47:30 GMT -5
Ya orks lost almost all of the leadership affects they had. No longer any bonuses for numbers of models, the ability to take mortal wounds to auto pass is a strat so can only save 1 unit. Orks also lost extra attacks for being in big units while taking all the negative of blast and coherency. I dont know if it was intentionally but I think they are trying to stop orks or any one else from bring 180 models at 2000 pts. Yeah I was looking at my Poison Tongue/Dark Creed realspace raid and evaluating the impact the following would have on Ld 6/7 models -3 Ld bubbles, +2 combat attrition modifiers (1 for killing a model w poison, 1 for Dark Creed bubble), Mortal wounds from PGLs and fight last from Tormentors Not on Ork topic but we do have a team tournament coming up, see if you can get yourself a Night lord CSM ally and you guys could have large parts of the board at -6 leadership and +3 to tests so models run on 1-4 so that's another 66% model loss. Could be fun if you could pull it off. |
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Post by lightcavalier on Jul 21, 2021 12:12:25 GMT -5
I think as well they've been trying to make leadership debuff armies (drukhari and night lords for example) actually be able to function. When alot of armies (space marines, orks, tyranids, necrons, certain daemon builds) have been able to completely ignore that phase of the game it meant that it didn't really matter at all. Why even have a morale phase if more than half the armies in the game ignore the mechanic? However, morale is also MUCH less punishing now. Those same orks who failed a leadership are likely only losing models on 1's, so in a 3 man squad who's failed leadership (so lost 5-10) might lose 3-4 more? That's certainly not nearly as punishing as old morale. Plus with an army of T5 boyz, having that withering bolter fire of old really doesn't translate to as many kills as previous when you're wounding on 5's with almost all small arms fire. So you may be overall less vulnerable than you think to most armies. Very true. I love the change to T5 boys, its a neat way to give durability without just copy pasting 2W like space marines. |
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Post by lightcavalier on Jul 21, 2021 12:12:37 GMT -5
Yeah I was looking at my Poison Tongue/Dark Creed realspace raid and evaluating the impact the following would have on Ld 6/7 models -3 Ld bubbles, +2 combat attrition modifiers (1 for killing a model w poison, 1 for Dark Creed bubble), Mortal wounds from PGLs and fight last from Tormentors Not on Ork topic but we do have a team tournament coming up, see if you can get yourself a Night lord CSM ally and you guys could have large parts of the board at -6 leadership and +3 to tests so models run on 1-4 so that's another 66% model loss. Could be fun if you could pull it off. Thanks for the tip |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 21, 2021 12:13:55 GMT -5
bad Jordan..... bad..... go stand in the corner.... you know what you just did!
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jul 21, 2021 13:35:44 GMT -5
Plus with an army of T5 boyz, having that withering bolter fire of old really doesn't translate to as many kills as previous when you're wounding on 5's with almost all small arms fire. So you may be overall less vulnerable than you think to most armies. I love the change to T5 boys, its a neat way to give durability without just copy pasting 2W like space marines. Anyone who has played a lot of D&D or other similar games will be familiar with the old High-AC/Low-Hp vs Low-AC/High-HP argument. From this perspective, it actually makes a lot of sense lore/fluff wise too. Marines have redundancies in their physical bodies, and have great ability to fight on wounded, but are easier to hurt than an Ork, but will take multiple blows to incapacitate or kill. Orks have very strong and tough hides, and therefore are much harder to injure, but they have less ability to fight wounded than a marine, and as such a single severe injury is often enough they can no longer fight on effectively. |
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jul 22, 2021 14:21:25 GMT -5
Full codex review has been up on youtube since this morning. I won't spoil anything, but wow, I'm actually so impressed I might be green with envy.... No joke.
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Post by Malarks on Jul 27, 2021 9:44:52 GMT -5
These leaks/review videos have been... Interesting... A lot of stuff seems to have changed for the "better" www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pOmxX4HR_8Forking... 5 points and a 7+sv? At least they aren't T2, anymore? Will that one point of toughness offset the 7+ save, though? (ooOOoOooooo! They get 5+ in cover  ) No Kulture, no Obsec.. I guess Da Red Gobbo is going in to retirement. Oh well... Wait... KFF has been nerfed to a 6++ save? What the fork? |
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jul 27, 2021 9:56:40 GMT -5
These leaks/review videos have been... Interesting... A lot of stuff seems to have changed for the "better" www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pOmxX4HR_8Fucking... 5 points and a 7+sv? At least they aren't T2, anymore? Will that one point of toughness offset the 7+ save, though? (ooOOoOooooo! They get 5+ in cover ) No Kulture, no Obsec.. I guess Da Red Gobbo is going in to retirement. Oh well... Wait... KFF has been nerfed to a 6++ save? What the fuck? Like I mentioned several posts back, KFF was 1000% getting nerfed. Orks play completely differently now, their playstyle has changed to the core. It's going to feel like they've completely broken your army and you have no idea what the f*** to do anymore, until you start to glue things together. New Mob Rule encourages lots of smaller units working together instead of giant blocks. 3 units of 10 boyz for example is MUCH better than 30 in a single mob now. Warbosses and Characters are super-punchy and are downright frightening to face mono-a-mono. Gretchin/Grots are now action-units that cost almost nothing but will rack up tons of secondary points while your boyz do the fighting. It's a completely new mindset, and it's going to feel frustrating at first, but don't get discouraged. This is honestly the best thing that could have happened to Orks imo, they've broken all the preconceived notions and added ability to play Orks in ways that haven't existed in a decade. Shooty orks is a thing, punchy orks is a thing, vehicle spam is a thing, hybrids of all of those ideas mashed together is a thing. This is an amazing book, don't give up on it just because the internet says things got nerfed. Think of it as "reborn anew and better than ever" |
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