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Post by Khalai on Nov 19, 2020 18:58:37 GMT -5
Lots of big scary threats, but I'm more worried about the rest of the list. I'd maybe consider dropping a LOC for more bodies? The Tzeentch psychic list is bad, so you don't really lose much there, also saves you a CP so you can have at least 3 to start the game.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Nov 21, 2020 8:08:26 GMT -5
Well Zara... I know you're not very good... but you dropped 200 points so that's reason enough to bring you (even though you cost me 3 CP to do it and you're almost as expensive as two keepers!)
I fully expect her to die immediately... but I'm going to try regardless!
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Daemons) [50 PL, 8CP, 1,000pts] ++
Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided
Rewards of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Great Unclean One [14 PL, -1CP, 270pts]: Bilesword, Fleshy Abundance, Miasma of Pestilence, Plague flail . Exalted Great Unclean One: 2. Revoltingly Resilient Lord of Change [14 PL, -1CP, 275pts]: Baleful sword, Bolt of Change, Exalted Lord of Change, Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gateway, Soul-eater Stave, Lord of Change [14 PL, -1CP, 275pts]: Baleful sword, Boon of Change, Exalted Lord of Change, Gaze of Fate, Treason of Tzeentch, Warpfire Blade Incorporeal Form,Warlord
+ Troops +
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts] 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts] 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth Nurglings [4 PL, 72pts] 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth
++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos - Daemons) [28 PL, -4CP, 550pts] ++
Chaos Allegiance: Slaanesh
+ HQ +
Keeper of Secrets [12 PL, -1CP, 240pts]: Delightful Agonies, Exalted Keeper of Secrets, Shining aegis, Symphony of Pain Keeper of Secrets [12 PL, -1CP, 240pts]: Exalted Keeper of Secrets, Hysterical Frenzy, Pavane of Slaanesh, Shining aegis
+ Troops +
Daemonettes [4 PL, 70pts]: Alluress 9x Daemonette: 9x Piercing claws
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Daemons) [23 PL, -3CP, 450pts] ++
Chaos Allegiance: Slaanesh
Zarakynel [23 PL, 450pts]: Cacophonic Choir, Delightful Agonies
++ Total: [101 PL, 1CP, 2,000pts] ++
--------------
Yes, you read that right... I start the game with 1 CP (thanks Zara!).
Okay what the hell am I thinking? Well I want to run Zara, that's what I'm thinking... so I need other reliable push threats (2 keepers) and other survivable models (GUO/LOC). I'm trying something different with the LOC's in NOT taking the impossible robe (gasp!). Instead I'm looking at one loaded out as a mortal wound / self healing monster, and the other one being a close combat threat... what? a LOC a close combat threat? with S6 AP-2? Well the warpfire blade changes that quite a bit, making him S8, AP-3, D6 damage and on a 6+ to wound an additional D3 mortals. That's nearly as fighty as a bloodthirster, but having a 4++ and way better casting/denial. Sure he's likely to die outright, but want to give it a shot regardless. The GUO loadout makes him survivable and scary in combat. Plus he can just sit on an objective and say "bring it". Nurglings bounce around the board being annoying and grabbing points. 10 daemonettes are very, very scared and hide on a backfield objective.
Even with a 4++ and -1 to be hit, I think Zara is enough of a threat that she's going to eat fire and just die before accomplishing anything, but if I can actually by some miracle reach combat, she's a beast and has pretty reliable self healing. So I'm going to give it a shot.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Nov 28, 2020 12:52:46 GMT -5
Okay I think that I've got my undivided daemon list down to what I want to run, following more test games. And no, Zara did NOT make the cut...lol... but she managed to live until turn TWO today, when she died to overwatch on a hail mary charge with two wounds remaining. And frankly she was super lucky to have lived through turn one at all, even with 2 wounds. She is just not worth the 450 points and 3 CP... but we all knew that, it's not like I'm saying anything tactical..lol
So here it goes:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Daemons) [66 PL, 9CP, 1,311pts] ++
Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided
+ HQ +
Great Unclean One [14 PL, -1CP, 270pts]: Bileblade, Doomsday bell, Exalted, Fleshy Abundance, Miasma of Pestilence
Great Unclean One [14 PL, -1CP, 270pts]: Bilesword, Nurgle's rot, Shriveling pox, Plague flail Exalted: 2. Revoltingly Resilient
Lord of Change [14 PL, -1CP, 275pts]: Baleful sword, Bolt of Change, Exalted Lord of Change, Gaze of Fate, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, The Impossible Robe, Warlord
+ Troops +
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts] 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts] 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts] 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts] 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
+ Elites +
Beasts of Nurgle [16 PL, 280pts] 8x Beast of Nurgle: 8x Putrid appendages
++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos - Daemons) [38 PL, -4CP, 689pts] ++
Chaos Allegiance: Slaanesh
+ HQ +
Keeper of Secrets [12 PL, -1CP, 240pts]: Hysterical Frenzy, Exalted, Shining aegis, Symphony of Pain Keeper of Secrets [12 PL, -1CP, 240pts]: Exalted, Hysterical Frenzy, Symphony of Pain, Shining aegis
+ Troops +
12 Daemonettes [8 PL, 84pts]: Alluress 11x Daemonette: 11x Piercing claws
+ Elites +
3 Fiends [6 PL, 125pts]: Blissbringer 2x Fiend: 2x Dissecting claws, 2x Vicious barbed tail
++ Total: [104 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++
--------------------------
so why the choices?
Well after a couple of games really the Tzeentch spell list kinda sucks. So much so that there's really only a couple of spells I ever want to cast (mainly gaze) and the LOC real role is having a warlord that is ridiculously hard to kill that has +2 bonus for psychic. I really only need one LOC for that. (the second one never does anything!). I think that there is enough value to keep the one LOC in the list.. I think...
The GUO really pulls his weight (heh) and doubling up actually adds to the list as another ridiculously hard to kill model that can't be just ignored (like the second LOC). One is geared for fighting while the other runs with the bell and sword, so can get a +1 to cast (for taking a mortal) and uses his bell to regenerate beasts of nurgle, which are amazing tarpits. So he follows them around, ringing his big old bell and helping them out as needed in combat.
The keepers are just really solid and I never regret putting them in my lists. Sticking with only two is a sacrifice but I said today that I can't really run on zero CP so adding a patrol and another exalted keeper gets me down to pretty much nothing all over again, and I'd have to lose the beasts and the fiends to do it... and I think they will add something to the list.
Fiends I want to play more as a test, but not allowing stuff to fall back is super nice.. and I could have REALLY used that ability today lol
so guess I'm buying another GUO?
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 11, 2021 9:42:41 GMT -5
So with the huge change of wraithseers changing significantly in imperial armor, this is my updated wraith host list
(and no, it's still not competitive!)
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [21 PL, -3CP, 380pts] ++
Craftworld Attribute: Iyanden: (strictly so I can use the strats on him, as he sadly doesn't benefit from the craftworld trait because GW hates superheavy auxilaries!)
Wraithknight [21 PL, 380pts]: Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser, Titanic Ghostglaive and Scattershield
++ Spearhead Detachment -3CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [92 PL, 9CP, 1,620pts] ++
Craftworld Attribute *Custom Craftworld*: Expert Crafters, Masters of Concealment
+ HQ +
Spiritseer [3 PL, 60pts]: 0. Smite, 4. Protect/Jinx, 6: Seer of the Shifting Vector, Shuriken Pistol, Warlord . Faolchu's Wing (12" movement I guess? I mean what else would I take? the relics are crap!)
+ Elites +
Wraithblades [20 PL, 320pts]: Ghostaxe and Forceshield, 8x Wraithblade Wraithblades [20 PL, 280pts]: Ghostaxe and Forceshield, 7x Wraithblade
+ Heavy Support +
War Walker [4 PL, 80pts] War Walker: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Aeldari Missile Launcher
War Walker [4 PL, 80pts] War Walker: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Aeldari Missile Launcher
Wraithlord [7 PL, 130pts]: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Ghostglaive, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult
Wraithlord [7 PL, 130pts]: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Ghostglaive, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult
Wraithlord [7 PL, 130pts]: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Ghostglaive, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult
Wraithseer [8 PL, 170pts]: 0. Smite, 3. Enhance/Drain, D-cannon
+ Flyer +
Hemlock Wraithfighter [12 PL, 240pts]: 0. Smite, 4. Protect/Jinx, Spirit Stones
++ Total: [113 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 11, 2021 15:53:23 GMT -5
You might want to look into running as Iyanden instead of EC/MoC, you'd gain access to the Psytronome of Iyanden as a relic (which as a one-use-per-battle DOUBLES all the attacks of all nearby Iyanden Wraith Construct units, through you take mortal wounds for doing so), and would also allow you to access the Iyanden-only stratagem of Guided Wraithsight, allowing Spirit Mark to be used at a range of 12" instead of 6", and all rerolling of ALL hit rolls instead of just 1s.
Those two pieces used in tandem can make an Iyanden list hit incredibly hard for a turn, and also keeps your Wraiths all fighting in their top-bracket almost all the way down. (I think with Iyanden, Wraithlords finally degrade to mid-bracket at 2 wounds), this also makes it a LOT easier to push them back into a higher bracket using Tears of Isha or even a Bonesinger to heal them. (which again you might consider).
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 11, 2021 16:21:42 GMT -5
Is that worth losing the master of concealment and old salamanders reroll hit and wound for each of them though? I don't know... I seriously just made a list of wraith constructs...lol I mean it can't do any WORSE than how I've been doing thus far with it, so maybe the EC/MOC isn't all that lol ... but I'm NOT painting them yellow
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Post by voodoo on Jan 11, 2021 16:24:02 GMT -5
Since it doesn't affect what models you bring, it can't hurt to try it out. If you can shotgun a ton of damage at someone randomly in the battle, it'll at least keep people guessing and jockeying distance to hopefully avoid that damage wave.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 11, 2021 19:58:42 GMT -5
Is that worth losing the master of concealment and old salamanders reroll hit and wound for each of them though? I don't know... I seriously just made a list of wraith constructs...lol I mean it can't do any WORSE than how I've been doing thus far with it, so maybe the EC/MOC isn't all that lol ... but I'm NOT painting them yellow People really overvalue Expert Crafters, it's most valuable when you are spamming weapons like Starcannons or AMLs, which I do see you have a number of in your list, but your sheer focus on wraiths makes me firmly believe being in your top bracket longer is more valuable than those rerolls. Masters of concealment is also a bit counter intuitive for this list. You want to be closing in and charging stuff, and it's great for helping you mitigate damage until you get there, but it can be taken away by the enemy being willing to get up in your grill. Iyanden provides offensive boosts and makes it a lot harder for your opponent to bracket you down to bs/ws 4+ or worse. Make sure your don't forget about Guided Wraithsight. For 1CP you are granting full rerolls to hit army wide against anything near your spiritseer. You should be treating the spiritseer as the guy who is acting like he owns the place and is just out for a walk while the wraiths absolutely hammer anything he gets within 12" of. If you feel granting cover is worth it, swap Enhance/Drain off your psykers and grab Conceal/Reveal, that way you can have two different buffs to throw (as Runes of Battle powers can only target INFANTRY and BIKERS, AKA your Wraithblades), giving one unit Cover and the other Protect, or both on the same target for a 1+/3++, and you'll still be able to debuff the enemy with jinx from the hemlock. As for arrangement, Smite/Protect is best on the Spiritseer since you can get it off each turn with the reroll from Seer of the Shifting Vector, then Conceal/Witch-Strike on the Wraithseer and Jinx from the Hemlock (as the Hemlock can only cast the debuff half of the power). I would also 100% give up Smite on the Wraithseer to grab Witch Strike to make that Ghostspear D3 + 5 damage for completely rofl-stomping a hard target in a pinch
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Post by Typhus on Jan 12, 2021 13:23:14 GMT -5
In this list you have 3 models that degrade meaningfully, setting aside the Wraithknight because it won't benefit from any Craftworld Attributes. I don't think Iyanden is worth it. The Psytronome is cute, but smiting all of your own units is a dangerous gamble.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Wrath of the Dead as a custom Craftworld Attribute. Giving all Wraith Constructs reroll 1s to wound is fantastic. I like to pair it with Expert Crafters for maximum reliability, but Masters of Concealment is also quite good.
Love the list. Wraiths are awesome.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 12, 2021 14:51:57 GMT -5
Thanks!
Yeah I don't really have any degrading profile models other than the three wraithlords. I'm also not a fan of once per game abilities. Which is why I never took Iyanden to begin with. That strat though for full rerolls in a bubble around the spiritseer seems pretty great. But if you reroll a miss and a wound per turn (with a missile launcher it's only one shot anyways most of the time, so this counts as full rerolls to hit AND wound)
I can see masters of concealment not being fantastic because it's true, I do want to get into melee, so can see the value in something else like Wrath of the dead. rerolling 1's from wrath of the dead to wound plus a reroll of the inevitable "2" from expert crafters is some pretty reliable wounding for sure.
The only bad thing about the custom craftworld is that the relics suck and you lose strats... lots to consider... for a suboptimal list...lol
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 12, 2021 15:01:57 GMT -5
If you are looking for alternatives to pair with Wrath of the Dead for the custom craftworld route, you could consider a couple other less-used ones as well. Most other custom-attributes are garbo, but there are a few possible gems in there.
Savage Blades gives you reroll 1s to hit in first-round of melee (Expert Crafters is _probably_ better than this)
Headstrong gives +1 to charge rolls (Possibly very strong combo)
Hunters of Ancient Relics gives +1 attacks while fighting on objectives (not terrible for Wraithblades, but meh on the big guys)
Unfortunately you are correct tho, custom craftworlds are hard because all the not-terrible relics are faction-locked
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 12, 2021 15:24:53 GMT -5
It seems like the only reason to actually take a custom craftworld is to take expert crafters... I cannot actually see giving up "old salamanders" ability + something else, as we all know how strong that was. Again... I haven't yet actually won a game with this list, so I don't think it can truly hang competitively, but trying to make the best list I can with what I have.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 12, 2021 15:28:50 GMT -5
Yeah, it's _very_ hard to build a good wraith-style list these days. We can hope for the 9th ed codex to repair things, but even Craftworlds as a whole has dropped to bottom tier these days. Craftworlds just can't hang in 9th much like Tau atm. There are certain things you can do to try and make the army work in casual games, but yeah. There's zero hope in making even a casually-competitive list atm.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 12, 2021 16:24:49 GMT -5
But I play for fun anyways, so I'd rather have a themed list I'm excited to build and paint. I have some armies that are more on the competitive side, so it's nice to have some that aren't going to make people cringe to see it on the table.
...assuming we get to play on a table at some point.. stupid zombies....
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